pippa
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Post by pippa on Jan 11, 2010 12:46:08 GMT
I also think that if a 15 year old refuses to attend school they, rather than their parents, should take most of the rap. But you do wonder why the mother took so little interest that she didn't notice that the girl was doing no schoolwork at all. except, if you read the book review (lark's latest link) Maria Mostered managed to pass exams and progess to the year up. pupils in Holland are made to repeat a year if they fail exams.
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aubrey
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Seeker for Truth and Penitence
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Post by aubrey on Jan 11, 2010 21:15:09 GMT
I meant to say that, and probably condensed it into incoherence.
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Post by lark descending on Jan 11, 2010 21:30:13 GMT
Agreed - but she did choose to truant and that's why I don't think she can pass the buck to her school, can she?
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pippa
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Post by pippa on Jan 12, 2010 0:01:16 GMT
hmm.... when is a child fully aware of all the ramifications truancy plays on their future prospects?
and when a child goes off to school each day, the parents hand over responsibility for the care of their child to the school. i believe that's the law. here in the uk schools have truancy officers, i would think to cover themselves, legally. parents are liable to prosecution if their child is truant. dutch law is different so i wonder whether the above would be applicable there.
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Post by lark descending on Jan 12, 2010 8:35:27 GMT
pippa - I skived school no end. Hated the place - but fortunately caught up later. We could leave school at 15, thank goodness, and I did - probably before I officially should.
Teenagers, even children of 12 get caught up in a lot of things they shouldn't, thinking they can handle it; gangs who ensnare them in crime, drugs......But would you blame the school, or their parents, for "allowing " it to happen? On the contrary, some degree of culpability must rest with the children themselves.
What I'm really railing against is the blame culture; the idea that just because something wasn't strictly your choice, it must be someone else's fault for allowing it to happen. We are in danger of ending up in a situation where children think it is okay to take risks, because they will be seen as victims if it all goes wrong.
The only culprit here is the young man who groomed her into prostitution; if she wants to blame anyone, she should find him.
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pippa
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Post by pippa on Jan 12, 2010 14:52:29 GMT
growl.... was just about to post my reply when this laptop i've recently begun to use shut itself down to install an update.
again...
good post, lark and entirely see and agree with what you're saying about the blame culture. it's far too prevalent, especially where there's a buck to be made out of it.
it's a dificult one though when it comes to a child slipping through a safety net which results in such dire consequences that will no doubt severely fuck up her life. her experience is likely to play on her mind constantly throughout her years and will probably affect how and the type of relationships she forms, particularly with men.
so perhaps it was/is therapeutic for her to have written about her circumstances. it will highlight and alert those in authority that have a responsibility towards children in their care, this particularly sickening danger that kids today could face. i cant imagine this sort of situation happening a few decades ago. also, i heard on the radio a while back that mentioned, particularly with asian men here in the uk, the growing problem of young women being pimped.
the fact her school didn't pick up on her truancy somewhat surprises me though - however i don't know what system is in place holland.
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Post by lark descending on Jan 13, 2010 9:16:39 GMT
Under English law there are three tests in a case of negligence, so applying these to the case of the school:
1.Was there a duty of care? The answer is clearly yes
2. Was there a breach of that duty? The case seems to have failed here, because the school argued that they had told the girl's mother
But even if they had failed in their duty, there would still be a third test:
3. Was the injury or damage a direct and forseeable consequence of the breach?
I say "no way", any more than a school could be held liable for a truanting child's criminal record, should he get caught up with a gang of bullying thugs who make him go shoplifting.
When I first said the girl was brave to bring the case, I hadn't appreciated that she had already wrtitten a book. She might have done it for therapeutic reasons - I know people who do write about their bad childhood experiences, even though they never intend to seek publication. She might on the other hand have done it for the money.
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aubrey
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Post by aubrey on Jan 13, 2010 10:02:21 GMT
Which is fair enough, isn't it?
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Post by lark descending on Jan 13, 2010 11:43:50 GMT
Which is fair enough, isn't it? Absolutely the best reason there is, Aubrey! I can remember chuckling with amusement when posters were praising Ulrika Jonsson for her "bravery" in talking about her rape experience in her autobiography.
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pippa
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Post by pippa on Jan 13, 2010 18:46:59 GMT
Under English law there are three tests in a case of negligence, so applying these to the case of the school: 1.Was there a duty of care? The answer is clearly yes 2. Was there a breach of that duty? The case seems to have failed here, because the school argued that they had told the girl's mother But even if they had failed in their duty, there would still be a third test: 3. Was the injury or damage a direct and forseeable consequence of the breach? I say "no way", any more than a school could be held liable for a truanting child's criminal record, should he get caught up with a gang of bullying thugs who make him go shoplifting. When I first said the girl was brave to bring the case, I hadn't appreciated that she had already wrtitten a book. She might have done it for therapeutic reasons - I know people who do write about their bad childhood experiences, even though they never intend to seek publication. She might on the other hand have done it for the money. i agree with the answer to clause 1 and we don't know about clause 2. but golly, as for clause 3. is that the legal terminology? how would it have been possible for anyone to see into the future and know the foreseeable consequence? however i would have said that what happened to her was direct consequence of not being in school. it stated in one of your links, lark, that both the school and her mother noticed that all was not well with the girl, yet somehow failed to look any closer. she was after all 12 at the outset of her life in prositution. writing about ones bad experiences is a recognised form of therapy and i've no problem with her also making money out of her book. as i don't know anything about this girl's personality i am unable to judge her or see any parrallell with ulkrika johnson who was a minor celeb before she wrote her book. i personally think she shamelesssly courts pubility.
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Post by lark descending on Jan 13, 2010 19:15:17 GMT
"Reasonable forseeability" is an element of negligence: here's a summary of sorts from Wiki : have a look at the paragraph on legal causation and remotenessSure, schools know that harm might come to a truant; I'm just not convinced they would or should be liable for every bad thing that happens to a truanting child while out of school. After all, the girl could equally have met with the man out of school hours (and probably did, initially). As for writing being therapeutic - well, perhaps it is, though I happen to think it can just encourage reinforcement of the bad memories, making them even harder to erase. Making a fat fortune out of them would be some compensation for that, though!
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