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Post by Henry Root on Dec 27, 2014 15:52:54 GMT
By the way, Mecca to Jerusalem is 767 miles. So is the price of fish,do you pay no attention to the markets at all woman?
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Post by aquatic on Dec 28, 2014 0:59:21 GMT
MR, you insult the intelligence of other posters. Always have done; presumably always will.
I’m perfectly capable of distinguishing between the contexts - historical and otherwise - of the Old Testament, the New T, and the Qur’an; and of appreciating the power, subtlety and ambiguity of metaphor, and imagery more generally, which all of them use to the virtual exclusion of literality.
You can’t pin anything down to a literal meaning. Or rather, YOU can (or think you can), but others tend not to, to their credit.
When you come out with crap like this -
You apologists will always find a reason to bury your heads in the sand concerning Islam or any other of your pet causes and beliefs. I'm not pandering to your tricks. Either read the Quran for yourselves and understand the life and behaviour there described and debate it here or STFU. I'm not spoon-feeding you deniers.
- it seems to me that you’re the denier.
First, I can’t see that anyone here is an ‘apologist’ for Islam; second, as far as ‘any other pet causes and beliefs’ are concerned, this forum and others are full of your own promotions of such; and third, you’re still ignoring the request to give us something to chew on.
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Post by marchesarosa on Dec 29, 2014 11:26:34 GMT
The apologists for Islam are those who shut their eyes to the message of the Quran and refuse even to read it, Aqua. Read the Holy Book of Islam is one of the very FIRST things I did when I began to suspect that it was the authentic source book for terrorism and many other abuses perpetrated to this day under Islam/Sharia.
I'm not buying the complaint that I am incapable of understanding the Quran and that it ineffable "meaning" is beyond me. Same for the Hadith and Sunna. They are perfectly understandable as are the gross repetitions of hostility and aggression towards other faiths contained in the Quran, Sura after Sura and verse after verse. The Quran is translated to all languages by scholars of Islam. Don't tell me YOUR version or the ARABIC version is the only way of conveying its meaning. That's just another dodge by people who cannot bring themselves to condemn this travesty of a religion. The meaning and teaching of the Quran is as accessible to modern people as that of the New Testament is.
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Post by aquatic on Dec 30, 2014 0:01:41 GMT
Don't tell me YOUR version or the ARABIC version is the only way of conveying its meaning. I venture to say that its meaning is probably more complex than you're allowing for. That's just another dodge by people who cannot bring themselves to condemn this travesty of a religion. Stop dissing people who don't happen to think like you. Actually, I'm sure I've condemned all religions from time to time (to no avail, inevitably, and rightly, probably), as have others on boards you frequent(ed). As I've said, I've no great liking for Islam, but singling it out as a 'travesty of a religion' is stupid - ie, unthinking - and probably counter-productive in terms of your objectives. The meaning and teaching of the Quran is as accessible to modern people as that of the New Testament is To understand the NT properly, you have to be spiritual. I’m not, very. Are you? J esus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. "For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.…”
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Post by marchesarosa on Dec 30, 2014 13:28:10 GMT
Well, aqua, I think you should take your ineffable spiritual understanding to the jihadis of the Caliphate. I know where they would tell you to stuff it. And after that they would behead you JUST LIKE MUHAMMAD DID TO HIS ENEMIES, COS, REMEMBER PAL, ANYONE WHO IS NOT A SUPINE FRIEND OF MUHAMMAD IS HIS ENEMY. Islam is not like neo-Anglicanism. It sticks to its traditions and the example of its founder. Geddit? That is why round the world, muslims are involved in atrocities in furtherance of their faith. Don't you get sick of hearing of them on the daily news? There comes a point, pal, when you have to acknowledge that this religious ideology IS aggressive, IS intolerant and IS murderous. And don't misrepresent what I have said. I am not speaking of ALL individual muslims but about the ideology, the teaching, the contents of the Holy Book of Islam. The jihadis can find consent in the Quran for every bloody, heinous act they commit.
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Post by jean on Dec 30, 2014 13:55:24 GMT
Well, aqua, I think you should take your ineffable spiritual understanding to the jihadis of the Caliphate. Why can't he take it to a thoughtful moderate Muslim instead? There are far more of those than there are jihadis of the Caliphate.Why can't they be taken as representative Qu'ran-readers instead?
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Post by marchesarosa on Dec 30, 2014 17:18:38 GMT
I am not interested in the "Quran's readers" jean. I am interested in what the Quran teaches. I don't care about modern "spin" I am interested in the word of God as recited by Muhammad. I think the words of Allah prove him to be a psychopath and Muhammad was his servant and fixer. (Or could it have been the other way round?)
It is the written word that is of interest to me - the "ideology", the "value system/social blueprint" in modernspeak.
I cannot help but compare the Quran with the New Testament and the life of Jesus as depicted by his followers. Jesus told people to love one another and to turn the other cheek. Whether or not people have succeeded in this counsel of perfection is irrelevant. What is important is that it is stated as the ideal to be aspired to. The Quran is quite simply murderous, aggressive and intolerant in its injunctions and there is no gainsaying it. People who would try to interpret away its bloodthirsty injunctions are prats.
Islam is not neo-Anglicanism which has re-invented itself for a secular PC world. Islam's teaching is immutable because Muhammad is the Perfect Man, what he did muslims may do and what he did not forbid (like slavery - the case in point) no-one else may forbid . Thus Islam is stuck forever with the morality of the Dark Ages of the Arabian desert. Yuk.
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Post by jean on Dec 30, 2014 20:36:51 GMT
I am not interested in the "Quran's readers" jean. Yes you are - but you're only interetsted in the jihadis, who take from it the message that suits you.
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Post by aquatic on Jan 1, 2015 1:12:51 GMT
Well, aqua, I think you should take your ineffable spiritual understanding to the jihadis of the Caliphate. I know where they would tell you to stuff it. And after that they would behead you JUST LIKE MUHAMMAD DID TO HIS ENEMIES, COS, REMEMBER PAL, ANYONE WHO IS NOT A SUPINE FRIEND OF MUHAMMAD IS HIS ENEMY. Islam is not like neo-Anglicanism. It sticks to its traditions and the example of its founder. Geddit? That is why round the world, muslims are involved in atrocities in furtherance of their faith. Don't you get sick of hearing of them on the daily news? There comes a point, pal, when you have to acknowledge that this religious ideology IS aggressive, IS intolerant and IS murderous. And don't misrepresent what I have said. I am not speaking of ALL individual muslims but about the ideology, the teaching, the contents of the Holy Book of Islam. The jihadis can find consent in the Quran for every bloody, heinous act they commit. Good context, MR, thanks – once you discard the bollocks, ouch. But it still doesn’t wash, does it?. Always you go too far, so you alienate people who might want to debate the subject with you. Lose-lose, I’d say, as usual. I am not interested in the "Quran's readers" jean. I am interested in what the Quran teaches. I don't care about modern "spin" I am interested in the word of God as recited by Muhammad. I think the words of Allah prove him to be a psychopath and Muhammad was his servant and fixer. (Or could it have been the other way round?) Well done. You’re getting there! I The Quran is quite simply murderous, aggressive and intolerant in its injunctions and there is no gainsaying it. People who would try to interpret away its bloodthirsty injunctions are prats. According to your criteria, none of us are prats. So stop telling us we are, you prat.
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