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Post by visitor on Oct 21, 2012 9:21:30 GMT
What do you have to believe to be a Christian? You don't have to believe any specific doctrine. That's the beauty of it. You merely have to be in broad agreement with what Christ is held to have said. That's why you'll find very few Buddhists who wouldn't be very happy to call themselves Christians. Not true for the Church of England. I am a Christian, confirmed in the CoE at age 21 (a few years back). Christians regularly recite the Nicene Creed that states exactly what they believe in. Although there are several different versions in use, they have very similar meainings and in our Church, we use the following form: I BELIEVE in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, And of all things visible and invisible:
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, Begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of very God, Begotten, not made, Being of one substance with the Father, By whom all things were made: Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, And was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, And was made man, And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, And the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, And ascended into heaven, And sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead: Whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, The Lord and giver of life, Who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spake by the Prophets. And I believe one Catholick and Apostolick Church. I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins. And I look for the Resurrection of the dead, And the life of the world to come. Amen.Other versions used by other Christian denominations can be found here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_versions_of_the_Nicene_Creed_in_current_use
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Post by marchesarosa on Oct 21, 2012 10:20:35 GMT
Jean, IS unduly concerned with the "supernatural" aspects of Christianity. I remember her arguing once that the appeal of the Virgin Mary for believers was because of her "miraculous" virginity. I argued at the time that on the contrary it was Mary's experience as a human MOTHER that provided the main point of empathy with women believers at least. Mary was and is a personality with whom believers can identify for her very human and not in the least supernatural grief over the loss of her son to whom she gave birth via the normal human pangs of labour. One has only to view works of art showing the descent from the cross to know that the tenderness of believers for Mary is entirely for her human attributes as a mother. So, it is dishonest for jean to say she is not concerned with the supernatural aspects of Christianity. She has demonstrated this trivialising concern before. Similarly, the list provided by pipop from wiki is concerned exclusively with supernatural elements of belief. Where is there a single word about the teaching of Christ on that list? It is the preaching of Christ and his new commandment - loving thy neighbour as thyself- that is the essence of Christianity, not the supernatural stuff.
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Post by pippop on Oct 21, 2012 10:26:08 GMT
Jean, IS unduly concerned with the "supernatural" aspects of Christianity. I remember her arguing once that the appeal of the Virgin Mary for believers was because of her "miraculous" virginity. I argued at the time that on the contrary it was Mary's experience as a MOTHER that provided the main point of empathy with women believers at least. Mary was and is a personality with whom believers can identify for her very human and not in the least supernatural grief over the loss of her son. One has only to view works of art showing the descent from the cross to know that the tenderness of believers for Mary is entirely for her human attributes as a mother. So, it is dishonest for jean to say she is not concerned with the supernatural aspects of Christianity. She has demonstrated this trivialising concern before. Similarly, the list provided by pipop from wiki is concerned exclusively with supernatural elements of belief. Where is there a single word about the teaching of Christ on that list? It is the preaching of Christ and his new commandment - loving thy neighbour as thyself- that is the essence of Christianity, not the supernatural stuff. Do you have a link, please?
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Post by marchesarosa on Oct 21, 2012 10:38:27 GMT
The creed quoted is also concerned almost exclusively with the supernatural elements of Christianity and not the teaching of Christ.
If you miss out the teaching of Christ it is very easy to caricature the religion as one of naive, uncritical acceptance of the supernatural.
As Nick has pointed out, Christianity in the UK, at least, has moved on.
When she recites the various creeds, does visitor actually "believe" them literally or simply use a form of words handed down by tradition and valuable for that reason as a sign of continuity ?
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Post by pippop on Oct 21, 2012 10:48:23 GMT
The creed quoted is also concerned almost exclusively with the supernatural elements of Christianity and not the teaching of Christ. If you miss out the teaching of Christ it is very easy to caricature the religion as one of naive, uncritical acceptance of the supernatural. As Nick has pointed out, Christianity in the UK, at least, has moved on. When she recites the various creeds, does visitor actually "believe" them literally or simply use a form of words handed down by tradition and valuable for that reason as a sign of continuity ? What creed? Quoted where? Who did that? We are lucky. I don't know.
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Post by pippop on Oct 21, 2012 10:55:20 GMT
1 Believe that there is a God who made the universe and everything in it. 2 Believe that Jesus was the son of God and came to be here as a result of... You've dropped the capitalisation of Son there. Why? Nonsense. There were Christians long before this obviously fabricated myth was ever propagated. There are bishops and even Archbishops now who assert such a myth should not be taken literally. Ahhhh...you're actually an emanation from the 17th Century, is that it? That's why you're so secretive? ;D Lift up the stone, I am there. Cleave the rock, I am there. You know nothing of the sort. "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you." No. Once again I say - it's good to have an expert on (the) board.
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Post by visitor on Oct 21, 2012 10:55:28 GMT
Before one is able to become a confirmed Christian (in CofE which is all I can speak to), one must attend confirmation classes. These took place in the vicarage, half a dozen or so of us, and were exclusively about the form and meaning of the Nicene Creed. These classes took eight weeks and each week the vicar took a section of the Creed and we discussed and debated its meaning so that each of us understood exactly what it was that we were confirming - our belief in Christianity as stated in the Creed.
This is not just some form of traditional mumbling that is included 'cos it always has been. It is fundamentally exactly what Christians are stating that they believe AS Christians.
For ncsonde to say Christians can believe whatever they like (or nothing) is absolute nonsense.
The teachings of Christ can be followed and adopted by non-Christians and Christians alike - they are behaviours not beliefs. Christians' beliefs are as stated in the Creed.
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Post by pippop on Oct 21, 2012 10:57:47 GMT
Before one is able to become a confirmed Christian (in CofE which is all I can speak to), one must attend confirmation classes. These took place in the vicarage, half a dozen or so of us, and were exclusively about the form and meaning of the Nicene Creed. These classes took eight weeks and each week the vicar took a section of the Creed and we discussed and debated its meaning so that each of us understood exactly what it was that we were confirming - our belief in Christianity as stated in the Creed. This is not just some form of traditional mumbling that is included 'cos it always has been. It is fundamentally exactly what Christians are stating that they believe AS Christians. For ncsonde to say Christians can believe whatever they like (or nothing) is absolute nonsense. The teachings of Christ can be followed and adopted by non-Christians and Christians alike - they are behaviours not beliefs. Christians' beliefs are as stated in the Creed. Hell's Bells! So he's not an expert after all? I've been duped!
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Post by marchesarosa on Oct 21, 2012 11:10:33 GMT
The Creed
"It is fundamentally exactly what Christians are stating that they believe AS Christians"
I think quite a few Christians in the UK are telling porkies, then, visitor.
Do you still believe the creeds, visitor? Do you still call yourself a Christian?
The distinction you make between belief and behaviour is quite extraordinary, if I may say so. Is the "behaviour" an optional extra?
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Post by pippop on Oct 21, 2012 11:13:25 GMT
The Creed "It is fundamentally exactly what Christians are stating that they believe AS Christians" I think quite a few Christians in the UK are telling porkies, then, visitor. Do you still believe the creeds, visitor? Do you still call yourself a Christian? The distinction you make between belief and behaviour is quite extraordinary, if I may say so. Is the "behaviour" an optional extra? Christians telling lies? That can't be right.
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Post by pippa on Oct 21, 2012 11:28:09 GMT
Before one is able to become a confirmed Christian (in CofE which is all I can speak to), one must attend confirmation classes. These took place in the vicarage, half a dozen or so of us, and were exclusively about the form and meaning of the Nicene Creed. These classes took eight weeks and each week the vicar took a section of the Creed and we discussed and debated its meaning so that each of us understood exactly what it was that we were confirming - our belief in Christianity as stated in the Creed. This is not just some form of traditional mumbling that is included 'cos it always has been. It is fundamentally exactly what Christians are stating that they believe AS Christians. For ncsonde to say Christians can believe whatever they like (or nothing) is absolute nonsense. The teachings of Christ can be followed and adopted by non-Christians and Christians alike - they are behaviours not beliefs. Christians' beliefs are as stated in the Creed.christianity and christian belief is so much broader than your anglican church, visitor which is as you said is all you can speak for. so to state Nick is talking absolute nonense is utter nonsense. christian gnostics for example do not adhere to the nicene creed. their style of faith is free, open and creative and urge that since you have a brain you should think for yourself and not adhere to any particular dogma or belief. the gnostics jesus is very different from the mainstream jesus that conventional christianity presents.
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Post by visitor on Oct 21, 2012 11:36:34 GMT
Pippa - I agree entirely, that's why I said "Not true for the Church of England" to ncsonde's "You don't have to believe any specific doctrine."
In my next post again I said "in CofE which is all I can speak to".
I have not tried to claim anything for all Christians, just those who belong to the Church of England.
I think your comment regarding gnostic Christians, along with marchesarosa's attempt to move the discussion from beliefs to behaviours is an attempt at deflection from the specific issue I was addressing which I made pretty clear I think: what do CofE Christians believe?
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Post by visitor on Oct 21, 2012 11:47:59 GMT
PS - and as you edited your post whilst I was creating mine, I shall say again that ncsonde's view that "You don't have to believe any specific doctrine" [to be a Christian] is absolute nonsense with regards to the Church of England.
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Post by marchesarosa on Oct 21, 2012 12:20:33 GMT
The C of E is a VERY broad church, visitor, ranging from tradition-respecting catholics to modern green protestants.
It is Christ's "example" (precisely his "behaviour") and his teaching that is the basis of Christianity, not paying lip service to his mum being a virgin etc.
But tell me, why on earth would anyone aged 21, be beguiled into expressing "belief" in the supernatural?
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Post by pippa on Oct 21, 2012 12:25:42 GMT
Pippa - I agree entirely, that's why I said "Not true for the Church of England" to ncsonde's "You don't have to believe any specific doctrine." In my next post again I said "in CofE which is all I can speak to". I have not tried to claim anything for all Christians, just those who belong to the Church of England. I think your comment regarding gnostic Christians, along with marchesarosa's attempt to move the discussion from beliefs to behaviours is an attempt at deflection from the specific issue I was addressing which I made pretty clear I think: what do CofE Christians believe? [edit to include the above before the ps]PS - and as you edited your post whilst I was creating mine, I shall say again that ncsonde's view that "You don't have to believe any specific doctrine" [to be a Christian] is absolute nonsense with regards to the Church of England. perhaps with regard to the church of england which is only one sect within christian belief. but since Nick was replying to pippops: "What do you have to believe to be a Christian?" it is unfair to dismiss his answer as absolute nonsense.
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