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Post by jean on Jun 5, 2012 9:09:14 GMT
...the OVER representation of lesbians amongst the ordained female clergy... I think you've omitted a crucial if in there, marchesa. In the post I was replying to, you correctly wrote: There are now more female ordinands every year than male. Of course most of the women in the pews are heterosexual. So are most women coming forward for ordination. For your claim that most of them are really lesbians, you've offered no evidence at all - except the circular argument that if they are, they can't say so, because the C of E doesn't knowingly ordain lesbians.
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Post by jean on Jun 5, 2012 9:11:16 GMT
I must say I think Nick is doing very well indeed on your board.
Congratulate him for me, please.
(If you don't, you'll be censoring me, and I'll know your respect for freedom of speech is a hollow sham.)
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Post by jean on Jun 5, 2012 9:13:13 GMT
Game, set and match to Nick!
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Post by marchesarosa on Jun 5, 2012 9:51:38 GMT
You are making the assumption that congregations and ministers are drawn from the same overall population, jean. (I use the term "population" in a statistical sense.)
I would suggest that the female flock and the female shepherds are drawn from different subsets.
In fact I think it is likely that lesbians are UNDER represented amongst the female flock and vastly OVER represented amongst the female shepherds and that requires explanation.
A LGBT support organisation estimates that gays represent 25% of C of E clergy in London. Why would they lie?
What's to argue about?
People like you should be celebrating, not downplaying your rapid ascendancy in the church! What's your problem? Why so coy?
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Post by marchesarosa on Jun 5, 2012 10:10:37 GMT
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Post by jean on Jun 5, 2012 10:12:56 GMT
....But it was the most important part, since it looks like the beginning of what could actually be evidence of ypur assertions.
Could you post details of this organisation, so I can see what they actually say about numbers, especially about numbers of male and female clergy respectively?
And I'd like to know whether they also agree with you that these gay clergy don't really believe what they're preaching, but have an extra-religious agenda of their own?
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Post by jean on Jun 5, 2012 10:30:10 GMT
Thank you. 13% over the country as a whole, including presumably both men and women. Is that really so very high a proportion compared with the population as a whole? But since we've known for a long time about the attractions of High Church Anglicanism for gay men, we need the figures to be broken down by sex to be able to draw any conclusions about the greater prevalence of gay women in the priesthood. You see, it's not the first part of your statement here that I question, but the 'guess' that proceeds from it: I have read an estimate that there may be 10% lesbian and gay clergy overall in the C of E. My guess would be CONSIDERABLY higher than that for lesbians amongst the female clergy... (And I've seen no evidence yet of gay priests of either sex not really believing any of it.)
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Post by marchesarosa on Jun 5, 2012 10:31:45 GMT
Official figures show that 290 women were ordained in 2010, the most recent year for which figures are available. By contrast, just 273 men entered the priesthood.
The watershed moment comes less than 20 years since the Church first allowed women to be priests, in the face of opposition from Anglo-Catholics and conservative evangelicals who believe that only men can be church leaders.
Back in 1994, just 106 women were ordained compared with 299 men. Overall there were still more than twice as many ordained men (8,087) as women (3,535) in 2010.www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9060296/More-new-women-priests-than-men-for-first-time.html33% of total Anglican clergy in 2010 were female! Fantastic growth! The LGBT Anglican Coalition claims there are 1,500 gay clergy (out of 11,600 overall). This means about 13%. I don't know how the proportions of gays amongst male and female clergy compare but even it were the same, 13% for both, that is MUCH higher than the proportion of lesbians in the population as a whole which has been estimated at about 5% at less than 2%. Personally, I expect the proportion of lesbians amongst the female clergy to be considerably understated at 13% simply because the C of E policy is still that gay clergy should be celibate so a "don't ask, don't tell" ethos exists.
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Post by jean on Jun 5, 2012 10:32:37 GMT
People like you should be celebrating, not downplaying your rapid ascendancy in the church! What's your problem? Why so coy? I might celebrate it if I though it was a fact, marchesa. But my experience doesn't support it.
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Post by jean on Jun 5, 2012 10:45:10 GMT
Official figures show that 290 women were ordained in 2010, the most recent year for which figures are available. By contrast, just 273 men entered the priesthood. I read that more women than men have chosen to be 'non-stipendiary' ministers, which means that the Church doesn't have to find money to pay them. And that it's very difficult to move from non-stipendiary to stipendiary. Women doing the job on the cheap, again. Not very fair that, is it? But I've read the article from start to finish, and I see nothing at all about the majority of them being lesbians. (Marchesa, are you ever going to pass on my congratulations to Nick? Or are you going to continue to censor me, because I don't follow your particular brand of 'political correctness'?)
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Post by marchesarosa on Jun 5, 2012 10:46:41 GMT
More than 13% of female Angican clergy gay! And this has been claimed by the LGBT Anglican Coalition itself.
A cause for celebration not denial, surely?
Deniers are NASTY people, aren't they, jean?
Where did I ever claim the "majority" of female C of E clergy were lesbians?
I just state they are *disproportionately* represented amongst the shepherds compared to the flock (or the female population of England if you prefer) and that they are politically motivated entryists combatting a last bastion of perceived "patriarchy".
In other words, Lesbian Priestesses are carrying onward the baton of the militant feminists of the 1960s!
Hurrah!
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Post by jean on Jun 5, 2012 10:58:43 GMT
Where did I ever claim the "majority" of female clergy were lesbians? You do seem to want me to draw that conclusion, marchesa: I should not be in the least surprised to learn that the majority of those women priests were lesbian
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Post by jean on Jun 5, 2012 11:13:52 GMT
You've deleted your post, marchesa! You've been over to MCL and you've removed it!
That's extraordinary behaviour, even for you.
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Post by marchesarosa on Jun 5, 2012 11:13:56 GMT
Well, spotted, jean! I had forgotten it.
But, it certainly could be the case that there is now a majority of lesbians amongst female clergy! Only 51% required!
13% of gay clergy overall could mean that more than half of female clergy are gay, since we don't have a breakdown by sex!
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Post by marchesarosa on Jun 5, 2012 11:20:57 GMT
I have not removed or edited anything from MCL today. I don't know what you mean, jean.
Go look again at Reply #377 on Jun 2, 2012, 7:38am before you start attributing bad faith to people who merely disagree with you, you misanthropic prat. You always turn to character assassination when you can't win the argument.
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