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Post by sinistral on Jan 9, 2010 9:44:36 GMT
An Army in time of world war is a different one to a peace time Army Yeah.....you bet it is...... TOMMY by Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer, The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here." The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die, I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I: O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away"; But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play, The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play, O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be, They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me; They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls, But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls! For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside"; But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide, The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide, O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap; An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit. Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?" But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll, The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll, O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too, But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you; An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints, Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints; While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind", But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind, There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind, O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all: We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational. Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace. For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
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Post by sinistral on Jan 9, 2010 10:09:21 GMT
I lived and worked near Aldershot in the 1970s and the "squaddies" had a bad repution for drunken violence, deserved or not I don't know. In those days of fuller unemployment the army was probably scratching around a bit more than it needs to now, but I think it is true that service life appeals to a certain type of young man, perhaps without a stable home background, who needs to channel his aggression and thrives on the comradeship, discipline and physical challenges. Take those away prematurely and you have a recipe for disaster. I'm certainly not saying that the majority of recruits are like that - but the majority of soldiers don't end up in jail, either. The son of a work acquaintance, in his late 20s and with a steady job with good career prospects, joined the Royal Marines last year and is apparently loving it. She is rather at a loss to understand the attraction. Lark,having lived in the area you will also know that there were pubs with a reputation for trouble where civvies caused most of it.Indeed I can think of at least three where travellers/Gypsies,whatever you want to call them,caused the problems. As to certain types of young men.There is no shortage of civilians who,night after night,get tanked up and cause trouble....many with stable home backgrounds. But you are right about the need to channel aggression.Young men,whether in uniform or not,need to be able to let rip in a controlled manner. National Service anyone?
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aubrey
WH Member
Seeker for Truth and Penitence
Posts: 665
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Post by aubrey on Jan 9, 2010 11:20:45 GMT
There are right bounders who join the army and real good blokes as well, like everything else.
I used to do shopping for an old bloke who had been in the army for a lot of his life; when he left he went to live with his mother and when she died he had no idea how to look after himself - she hadn't taught him and the army hadn't. His flat would have been a tip 20 years ago; when I knew him it was all grown over. He wouldn't let anyone from the council in to clean up. I don't know what could have been done about him, really. (He died about 2 months after I stopped shopping for him - actually, he stopped me because he thought I was fiddling him.)
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Post by jamesjosh on Jan 9, 2010 11:57:07 GMT
Exactly Aubrey. I can admire soldiers for doing a difficult job but it is their job. I think it is wrong to make heros of people you do not know as seems to happen with soldiers.
It is very sad when young men die before their time but that also applies to men who are not in the army.
There was the big issue about the PM sending letters of condolences to soldiers' families, but did he send a letter of condolence to the young man's parents who was shot in a post office protecting his parents.
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Post by sinistral on Jan 9, 2010 15:20:25 GMT
Exactly Aubrey. I can admire soldiers for doing a difficult job but it is their job. I think it is wrong to make heros of people you do not know as seems to happen with soldiers. So giving your life to save others does not a hero make? Or perhaps only when not wearing a uniform. Subtle difference...... The PM,as head of government is responsible for the deployment of troops. I think a letter of condolence is the very least that could be done..... (And knowing how this country treats those who serve it,that will probably be all that is done)
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Post by lark descending on Jan 10, 2010 8:31:27 GMT
Racking my brains here, there have always been a high propertion of ex-service people among the homeless, street drinkers, mentally ill and prisoners. This was happening even in peeriods when none was involved in wars; the Northern Ireland situation was bad, but nothing like as dangerous and hostile as the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, surely? So I'm not sure everything can be put down to the trauma and stress of escaping death - though of course that does not lessen the duty to take this kind of damage seriously, and offer the best treatments available.
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Post by Jade on Jan 10, 2010 11:05:57 GMT
Perhaps those who go intot he army to satisfy their need for external discipline, external care and to have a formal structure to their lives are those who cope least when it is taken away
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pippa
WH Member
Posts: 230
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Post by pippa on Jan 10, 2010 12:48:01 GMT
that's it Jade. its usual that those who enlist do so straight out of school. also, around here very young cadets are still at school. the point being that the army takes control of their lives from a young age. everything is taken care of for them. routine and regimentation is their norm. so its hardly surprising that when they leave the military, having to adapt and cope with life outside is extremely difficult when someone has been istitutionalised for so long. although not surprising, it surely explains to some extent why ex service personnel are also disproportionately represented among the homeless population.
btw, is three percent that high when you consider the age and sex distribution of the prison population ?
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Post by Jade on Jan 11, 2010 8:48:05 GMT
I suppose it depends if you can identify any other discreet group that is more prevalent. If say 20% are from one parent families, or 10% from people whose mum's first name is Jade for example. This may make a 3% incidence less remarkable.
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Post by jamesjosh on Jan 11, 2010 13:05:16 GMT
Exactly Aubrey. I can admire soldiers for doing a difficult job but it is their job. I think it is wrong to make heros of people you do not know as seems to happen with soldiers. So giving your life to save others does not a hero make? Or perhaps only when not wearing a uniform. Subtle difference...... The PM,as head of government is responsible for the deployment of troops. I think a letter of condolence is the very least that could be done..... (And knowing how this country treats those who serve it,that will probably be all that is done) A person who puts their life at risk to save another can be described as a hero, but that is not the sum of that person's character. I can admire soldiers for being out in Afganistan, but I would not want to be a in pub with a load of drunken soldiers no matter how many lives they have saved. And are soldiers actually saving people's life by being in Afganistan. They join the army and are sent to wherever they are ordered to go. They are always trained to deal with someone who has gun, there are some people (ie shop assistants, bank staff etc) who sometimes have to face men with guns and they have not been trained. I also have a suspicion that "our brave lads" are sometime exploited by some politicians and some parts of the media, who really do not care for them as individuals. politicians sign papers and men die.
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Post by Jade on Jan 11, 2010 14:11:17 GMT
Is there a differnce between being "heroic" and being "admirable" - a hero you can admire from afar, a person whio is not admirable you would not want to find in your local
could soldiers be one and not the other?
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