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Post by marchesarosa on Jan 1, 2010 13:13:04 GMT
That question has not arisen in my posts so far, jean. I have stated merely that I object to public funds being used for MUSLIM education.
Exposing muslim kids to mainstream culture via normal state schooling can't be bad - it's one of the few opportunities they get to participate with non-muslims, after all, given their community's propensity for self segregation!
This is a different matter from the motivation behind other types of home-schooling, I would have thought.
You have to recognise that some motivations have more merit than others. Voluntary self-segregation cannot be helpful in promoting social cohesion.
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Post by jean on Jan 1, 2010 15:46:01 GMT
Often the effect is the same, whatever the motivaion.
My sister and brother-in-law toyed with the idea of home-educating their children - well actually my sister was never very keen on the idea, as she realised she'd have to do most of the work.
But as English-speaking incomers in a Welsh-speaking part of Wales, they would have made their children outsiders in the host community even more than they were already.
Fortunately they realised this, and instead sent their children to local Welsh-medium schools where they all learned fluent Welsh and did very well in other respects too.
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Post by lark descending on Jan 2, 2010 14:25:09 GMT
That was interesting,Lark. You see the thing that worries me is that it will be the same authorities who already can't provide a safe,bully-free environment in which to educate children that will now be allowed to poke their noses into private homes,without any justification. In effect this proposed legislation is simply extending the premise that all adults are neglectful parents or potential abusers until proven otherwise. Very creepy....very dangerous. No-one will be storming up to people's houses without an appointment demanding access of right, will they? That would be completely over the top. But if the interviews and work checks could be done outside the home, would that satisfy the critics? Professionals who work with children, or even come into contact with them, are trained to pick up the tell-tale signs of abuse, so anyone who sends their child to a school or sports club will be indirectly under scrutiny. Of course good home educators will probably take their children to out of school activities...but there is no compulsion to do so.
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Post by Jade on Jan 3, 2010 16:15:00 GMT
Dear marchesa and sinistral
if you are going to respond to me please respond to what I actually type, not what you are deciding to pretend I type.
I am surely not going to counter accusations about stuff I didn't say, so dont get all hot under the collar about it - if I didin't say it I dont have to defend it. There is a strategy in message board land of looking at what someone (the bully's victim?) says and then pretending they said something else, then getting outraged about the thing they actually didin't say .............
Toad did it better. He could make it spin for absolute PAGES. You are not so practised.
Pippa -yes, boys are equally disadvantaged by home education. Just I think girls may have more to fear.
I wouold wonder why any parent would want to home educate, but would be entirely open to being persuaded that it was the best choice
Unless it was for unconscionable reasons of course
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Post by marchesarosa on Jan 3, 2010 17:57:31 GMT
You insinuated that home education could be a cover for child abuse, amongst other things, Daze.
You slurred both opponents of state education and proponents of home schooling with this juxtaposition of home education with abuse.
No-one misunderstood you. Quite the contrary.
Stop bleating. It is not becoming in a woman of your age.
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Post by sinistral on Jan 3, 2010 22:08:34 GMT
Come off it,Jade. Here is your original contribution to this thread....... If you want to opt out of the mainstream of our society in order that your girls may have a very different understanding of our world than is the norm for girls in school - if you want to keep them entirely separate and ignorant, if you want them to have a particular religion that would not stand up to playground scrutiny, if your want your abuse of them never to be discovered, and for them to think it normal, then the very best way to do this is to forbid them a school and to take utter control of everything they experience. If to make this abuse less impossible to detect you have a process of inspection that is the minimum for anyone that looks after children other than their own, that is very light touch in most cases but allows for more rigour if there are concerns, then I am all for it. It is not the process that is the problem, it will be in the quality of its application. I know there are many that hate the idea of the State involving itself in family life, but when it comes to intervening in the possible abuse of children I think we should think about it harder. You have blustered in an attempt to obscure the meaning of what you said.But there it is....in all it's glory. You have quite clearly linked home education with ignorance and abuse. Earlier in this thread I asked you to provide stats to back up these outrageous claims......you don't seem to have found any yet. And while we're about it......you talk of girls being kept separate and ignorant.Well I think you'll find that's already being done in certain communities.No need to keep them at home to "educate" them.....send them to Muslim faith schools.If you're lucky the taxpayer might even stump up.Perhaps you could explain why Government funded separation of girls is acceptable? How do you know if children are disadvantaged by home education anyway? Unless by disadvantaged you mean they might grow up asking inconvenient questions about everything being controlled by the state. The only person getting hot under the collar here is your good self dear.Invoking the name of Toad to try and undermine your opponents opinions is really rather sad.
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aqua
WH Member
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Post by aqua on Jan 4, 2010 0:56:09 GMT
I'm in favour of state education and the eradication of private education.
The state system I'd like to see is publicly-funded facilitation and quality-control of educating children and young people in settings much more varied than just home and school, and in ways and for purposes that home and school are often not compatible with.
Of course, I'm something of a de-schooler: I hate the societal effects of institutionalisation. I wish school wasn't so potentially - and actually in I think most cases - suffocating and damaging to children.
In principle, I wouldn't be opposed to the state having monitoring rights over education 'otherwise than at school', which has so far been interpreted as 'home-schooling', but should be much more than that.
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Post by Jade on Jan 4, 2010 9:10:53 GMT
I said what I meantto say of course.
and I did mean it
It just doesn't say what you have decided to get outraged about
tut
quite toady, really quite toady
lets get back to the actual issue shall we ladies, instead of you both doing the playground bully thing of pointing and catcalling?
In this country we decided a goodly while ago that education was something we all should receive. Indeed if parents refuse to allow it they can (and have) gone to jail
Is it not completely understandable therefore that we want to make sure it is happening? And to set down some minimum standards? If we do that then of course those standards should be "policed"
And in doing so we may even find the few children whose parents (or owners, pimps, coercers and procurers) wish to remove children from society for other reasons. Which is a good thing.
You may decide to believe I think that all homes-schoolers are in that abusing category, but that is your decision and your delusion and none of making.
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Post by jean on Jan 4, 2010 10:17:26 GMT
How do you know if children are disadvantaged by home education anyway? lark gave a good example earlier in this thread, sinistral: I know of a woman (friend of a friend) who promised her eldest child that he would not go to the local comprehensive, where he would be mixing with children who had bullied him before. He failed to get a place anywhere else, so she kept him at home in the fond belief that the education authority would give in and offer him a place at a more favoured school. It never happened, and the mother kept the younger child at home teaching them very little. After a few years she gave in and allowed the younger one to go to the local school but the elder one remained at home until 16, when he was old enough to go to the 6th form college. I am told that he he is now in a basic skills group. Nobody is suggesting that this, or any other of the possible disadvantages a home-'educated' child may suffer, always happens, or even often does. But that it can happen at all is because of the fact that And that needs to nbe addressed, somehow or other. There's considerable disquiet about the new proposals, as my OP showed. But have you got a better idea of how to do it?
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Post by marchesarosa on Jan 4, 2010 10:33:46 GMT
Unlike aqua, I have nothing against "private" education. The more the merrier. i would make it easier for various non-profit bodies and trusts to set up private educational institutions and I would finance them from the public purse. The use of education vouchers which parents can spend in whichever school they wish, whether state or private, could be investigated. State education has become a monolith and nothing monolithic deserves to dominate a whole system.
Something certainly needs to be done to genuinely educate the children of the underclass who make the education of every other child so problematic in some areas.
The class system has become ossified and it must be freed up somehow. Education was the means in the past to overcome parenting and class inequalities and could become so again.
Technology has moved on so much recently, one has to believe that it can in some way be harnessed to serve the overwhelmingly pressing need for a shake-up that will free up the talent that is currently locked away in unfulfilled human potential and unfulfilled lives.
Why aqua should believe that even more of the same (state education) will do the trick is quite beyond my comprehension.
I thought he was a bit of an anarchist on the quiet.
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Post by Jade on Jan 4, 2010 10:48:51 GMT
I thought you might want to actually see the stuff you are being excercised about. It is the most gentle peice of legislation I have seen in a while. (Children School and Families Bill)
If either the child or the parents object to a private interview then it wont take place. If a meeting does take place they get two weeks written notice of it.
19E Monitoring provision of home education to registered children 25 (1) A local authority in England shall make arrangements with a view to ascertaining, so far as is reasonably practicable— (a) whether the education provided to a child whose details are entered on their home education register is suitable; (b) whether it accords with information provided to them for the purposes of the application for registration; (c) what the child’s wishes and feelings about it are; (d) whether it would be harmful for the child’s welfare for the child to continue to be a home-educated child. (2) For the purposes of this section a child’s education is suitable if it is 35 efficient full-time education suitable to— (a) the child’s age, ability and aptitude, and (b) any special educational needs the child may have. (3) Arrangements made by an authority under this section shall include arrangements made with a view to their— (a) holding at least one meeting with the child during the registration period; (this is the entire period of the home schooling) (b) holding at least one meeting with a parent of the child during the registration period; (c) if they consider that a person other than a parent of the child is primarily responsible for providing education to the child, holding at least one meeting with that person during the registration period; (d) visiting, at least once in the registration period, the place (or at least one of the places) where education is provided to the child. But in a case where the registration period begins less than six months before the date on which the child ceases to be of compulsory school age, this subsection shall be read as conferring a power rather than imposing a duty. (4) Arrangements made under subsection (3) may, unless the child or a parent of the child objects, provide for a meeting with the child at which no parent of the child or other person providing education to the child is present. (5) In making arrangements under this section— (a) to meet with the child or any other person, or
(b) to visit a place where education is provided to the child, the authority shall give at least two weeks written notice of the meeting or visit.
However, you may want to know what is demanded of home - schoolers (which is pitifully little)
What's required of you - the facts about home education are:
you do not need to be a qualified teacher to educate your child at home
your child is not obliged to follow the National Curriculum or take national tests, but as a parent you are required by law to ensure your child receives full-time education suitable to their age, ability and aptitude
any special educational needs your child may have must be recognised
you do not need special permission from a school or local authority to educate your child at home, but you do need to notify the school in writing if you're taking your child out of school
you will need to notify the local authority if you are removing your child from a special school
you do not need to observe school hours, days or terms
you do not need to have a fixed timetable, nor give formal lessons
there are no funds directly available from central government for parents who decide to educate their children at home
some local authorities provide guidance for parents, including free National Curriculum materials
so I think a question remains about whether home schooling is itself "a good idea"
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pippa
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Post by pippa on Jan 4, 2010 11:25:23 GMT
it costs the state £2,000 per child per anum to school a child. at least that's how is was five years ago. and, there already is a mechanism in place where parents must show the local authority their child is being adequately educated. in each case a representative visits the family to check what's in place. also, many who decide to home educate belong to the organisation 'education otherwise' a network providing info that covers just about everything you need to know to home educate including that which relates to the law. it offers networking facilities where families can get in touch with each other and arrange group meeting, outings, camps etc.
i knew of a woman who home educated her own kids and also was an after school childminder thereby facilitating a social situation for her own and other children. it worked very well.
obviously there will be those who might be disadvantaged by home ed but that doesn't mean to say the same child would have been better off in school - especially in the case of school refusers (a recognised phobia) where a child who has been traumatised already at school and the school either failed or had little interest in dealing with the situation adequately. i said earlier many schools are complicit in bullying, or turn a blind eye, contrary to whatever they claim or any manifesto they pretend to adhere to. in such situations should parents be physically dragging their children to school or set up another healthier option to home educate when its clear an alternative school is not an option. sometimes either too far to travel or just another crap institution.
clearly there are pros and cons but the woefully inadequate state system can hardly hold itself up as a beacon to the best option. social inclusion is a good thing but can but can be devastating for some who are stuck with the same bullies year after year throughout their school lives and that is deeply damaging.
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Post by Jade on Jan 4, 2010 11:51:52 GMT
Hi Pippa
I remember on a "Wife swap" programme a while ago one of the wives had been bullied at school and had subsequently decided to home school her child. the replacement wife decided to send her to school so she could see what it was like and she was so so excited! She loved it
when the real wife came back though she put a stop to it
I thought she was a dreadful mother to impress her child with her own prejudices but I suppose every mother does that to some extent. Hopefully not to the extent of actually damaging the kids future (?)
As for schools that do not counter bullying, shame on them, and sack the senior staff. No excuse for brushing that under the carpet, especially if it means that kids are home schooled by rank amateurs instead of receiving the best they could get from trained professionals.
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pippa
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Post by pippa on Jan 4, 2010 12:12:57 GMT
However, you may want to know what is demanded of home - schoolers (which is pitifully little) What's required of you - the facts about home education are:
you do not need to be a qualified teacher to educate your child at home gordon bennett. bluddy bits of paper again. means nothing. a piece of paper may say you know your subject but doesn't mean to say you are a good teacher or can impart knowledge in a constructive and valuable way. doesn't mean you are a good communicator. i'd say more people are better qualified who do not necessarily have that precious piece of paper. an a jolly good thing too in each instance. national testing is not the best means to evaluate a child's capabilities. since when is 9-5 the only way to learn? ahh... but the state doesn't do this does it? and certainly not adequately. in some cases it does but the vast majority of children who have special educational needs slip through the net because teachers are struggling to maintain crowd control in over sized under resourced classrooms. even if a home educated child does have special educational need the local authority is obliged to help but the don't. they basically don't care and many parents with children that have special educational needs battle like mad to acquire extra help they are entitled to. (extra help that should but often isn't available at school) . remember each child that is home educated is saving the state £2,000 per year. quite. not everyone makes the assumption schools are adequate. any school for that matter - it's the law. the procedure is to inform the school in writing that you intend to remove your child and the school by law must inform the local authority otherwise the school will still be paid for a child who is not on their books. precisely what is the point to follow these- what's so wonderful about 9-5? a typical learning activity at home might involve cooking or baking (barely available at school these days) where all sorts of learning tasks are involved. arithmetic, quantities weights and measures plus a delicious something to eat afterwards, the family meal for instance.. or it may involve a jaunt to the beach learning about fossils flaura, and fauna, geography, geology all incorporated into a fun and enjoyable day of learning rather than being cooped up in an unruly classroom all day long with some stiffling old bore. schools do not stretch kids enough. and its amazing how little general knowledge kids at school learn. well there are actually specifically for children with special educational needs but trying to access them is like squeezing blood out of a stone. i did voluntary work for an organisation that helped parents access some of these carefully guarded pennies from the LA. hahahaha hillarious. they do not unless forced to. oh yes without doubt it can offer a far more varied, interesting, and much more fun form of education. more should try it.
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aqua
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Post by aqua on Jan 4, 2010 13:42:23 GMT
Unlike aqua, I have nothing against "private" education. The more the merrier. i would make it easier for various non-profit bodies and trusts to set up private educational institutions and I would finance them from the public purse. The use of education vouchers which parents can spend in whichever school they wish, whether state or private, could be investigated. State education has become a monolith and nothing monolithic deserves to dominate a whole system. Something certainly needs to be done to genuinely educate the children of the underclass who make the education of every other child so problematic in some areas. The class system has become ossified and it must be freed up somehow. Education was the means in the past to overcome parenting and class inequalities and could become so again. Technology has moved on so much recently, one has to believe that it can in some way be harnessed to serve the overwhelmingly pressing need for a shake-up that will free up the talent that is currently locked away in unfulfilled human potential and unfulfilled lives. Why aqua should believe that even more of the same (state education) will do the trick is quite beyond my comprehension. I thought he was a bit on an anarchist on the quiet. Actually I agree with much of what you say here. It's not incompatible with what I said in my previous post, except as far as private education (and selection) is concerned; I'm for equal opportunity, and can't see that you can safeguard that if you allow private wealth (and selection) to dominate.
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