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Post by sinistral on Dec 4, 2009 23:10:43 GMT
Ah but that's where you've gone wrong Marchesa.
We can't have parents teaching their children how to behave......that's what we have a PC "industry" for!
Image all those countless thousands of advisor's and councillors with no work to do.Denied the opportunity to pick and paw over everyone's words to ensure that their meaning doesn't give offence.....indeed to make sure that they have no meaning at all.
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pippa
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Post by pippa on Dec 4, 2009 23:19:12 GMT
Ah but that's where you've gone wrong Marchesa. We can't have parents teaching their children how to behave......that's what we have a PC "industry" for! Image all those countless thousands of advisor's and councillors with no work to do.Denied the opportunity to pick and paw over everyone's words to ensure that their meaning doesn't give offence.....indeed to make sure that they have no meaning at all. lol. how perceptive and so true. |
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Post by marchesarosa on Dec 4, 2009 23:35:34 GMT
Mr and Mrs Specialpeople are in the "Equality" Business, surely?.
State functionaries. Rearranging the deckchairs.
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Post by iamspecial on Dec 4, 2009 23:39:09 GMT
Ah but that's where you've gone wrong Marchesa. We can't have parents teaching their children how to behave......that's what we have a PC "industry" for! Image all those countless thousands of advisor's and councillors with no work to do.Denied the opportunity to pick and paw over everyone's words to ensure that their meaning doesn't give offence.....indeed to make sure that they have no meaning at all. How misguided and untrue What "PC" industry? What advisor's and councilors - therapeutic or town /county councilors? Political correctness is so much more than "words" Next you will be complaining about Ba Ba Black Sheep being banned - urban myth |
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pippa
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Post by pippa on Dec 4, 2009 23:52:13 GMT
Ah but that's where you've gone wrong Marchesa. We can't have parents teaching their children how to behave......that's what we have a PC "industry" for! Image all those countless thousands of advisor's and councillors with no work to do.Denied the opportunity to pick and paw over everyone's words to ensure that their meaning doesn't give offence.....indeed to make sure that they have no meaning at all. How misguided and untrue What "PC" industry? What advisor's and councilors - therapeutic or town /county councilors? Political correctness is so much more than "words" Next you will be complaining about Ba Ba Black Sheep being banned - urban myth As I said earlier use of politically incorrect terms is just lazy and sloppy ahem... |
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Post by sinistral on Dec 4, 2009 23:58:12 GMT
Political correctness is so much more than "words" Well ain't that the truth! So much more than mere words to ban the promotion of Christmas.... Ooo now my little focus group,what shall we call it instead.....I know...Winteval.....(Or is that another urban myth?) |
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Post by sinistral on Dec 5, 2009 0:01:15 GMT
Mr and Mrs Specialpeople are in the "Equality" Business, surely?. State functionaries. Rearranging the deckchairs. Is that before or after hitting the iceberg...... Hush my mouth...that's probably ice-ist. |
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aubrey
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Post by aubrey on Dec 5, 2009 15:21:21 GMT
Come on Marchesa - Equality legislation means stopping people only letting rooms to white people ("No Blacks, Irish, dogs"), or paying man and women different wages for the same work (still not there yet), or not letting them stop gay people from having equal partnership rights to straights, or not letting bus companies decide that they won't cater for disabled people - stuff like that (and I hope I've got all my negatives right there). It is all fairly basic stuff.
People are generally ok, face to face; but sometimes they need to be shamed into behaving right, especially if they don't see the results of their bad behaviour (yes - me too, I know). Companies are especially prone to bad behaviour, as everyone can blame someone else for it. And if you're the only company that is (say) providing access for disabled people, your competitors can get the edge. So discrimination has to be made illegal, then everyone's starting off level.
Anyway, they all had years to do it without "PC" legislation, and what happened? Nowt.
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Post by sinistral on Dec 5, 2009 15:48:20 GMT
Come on Marchesa - Equality legislation means stopping people only letting rooms to white people ("No Blacks, Irish, dogs"), or paying man and women different wages for the same work (still not there yet), or not letting them stop gay people from having equal partnership rights to straights, or not letting bus companies decide that they won't cater for disabled people - stuff like that (and I hope I've got all my negatives right there). It is all fairly basic stuff. People are generally ok, face to face; but sometimes they need to be shamed into behaving right, especially if they don't see the results of their bad behaviour (yes - me too, I know). Companies are especially prone to bad behaviour, as everyone can blame someone else for it. And if you're the only company that is (say) providing access for disabled people, your competitors can get the edge. So discrimination has to be made illegal, then everyone's starting off level. Anyway, they all had years to do it without "PC" legislation, and what happened? Nowt. And with all due respect Aubrey,your post is a very fine example of what hacks so many people off about PC. Listening to you one would think that social progression never occured until someone invented the phrase Political Correctness. Pick up a history book. I don't think you'll find PC being attached to universal suffrage,statutory paid holidays,old age pensions,child benefit,the NHS....the list is endless. What is it about you PC merchants that makes you delude yourselves into thinking everything was bad and no one did anything about it until PC came along? Apart from anything else it's an insult to all those social reformers who really did have to work bloody hard,often pushing against closed doors,to get any advances. Nowt indeed! |
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Post by marchesarosa on Dec 5, 2009 16:04:48 GMT
What's objectionable is the way the PC bandwagon has been jumped on by careerists - jobs for the boys and girls - just as they have jumped on the AGW bandwagon (same folk, probably). It's an employment opportunity and, my, has that sector grown!
Like sin, I think some things progress on their own. The PC brigade are pushing at an open door whilst convincing themselves they are fighting the good fight. They are salaried placemen who like to pretend they have inherited the mantel of genuine self help.
I don't mind equality legislation.
I mind the zealots telling me I cannot be trusted to use the word golliwog or that my judgment is faulty when it comes to avoiding causing offence to others and that I must abide some new linguistic rule.
And, my goodness, didn't they all pile in and make a meal of the matter not so long ago. I have better things to pre-occupy me. Like raking up the leaves, for a start.
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aubrey
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Post by aubrey on Dec 5, 2009 16:10:07 GMT
I don't think it was. (By the way, the term PC was invented by its opponents, in US Universities, wasn't it? I know the first pieces I saw about it were against.) But all those were laws, that had a hell of a time getting passed. Without them employers would not have set up a welfare state on their own, for eg.
But - anti racism legislation is PC, isn't it? And anti disabled discrimination? They might have happened witthout a PC label, but now they automatically get called PC. (It was only a few years ago that I saw a woman in an upright wheelchair type thing refused entry to a bus, the driver saying "I can't take that" - not even "I can't take her" - as if she wasn't alive, even. I don't think that would be legal now. Is that PC legislation or what?)
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Post by marchesarosa on Dec 5, 2009 16:24:27 GMT
I happen to have personal family experience of precisely one such employer that did set up a mini welfare sate of its own back in the 1920's. It was Montagu Burton in Leeds, where my father spent nearly all his working life, retiring in 1973.
They had a sick fund and paid holiday fund, had nurses, doctors, dentists and opticians on site, gave dowries to the women when they got married and had a canteen that could seat 3,000, I think, that fed the massive workforce at very low prices. They had huge sports fields and clubs of all descriptions.
It was for decades the largest employer in Leeds. It set an example of good practice that I imagine is unsurpassed.
I know most work people did not enjoy such security but there were enlightened employers around. Look at the Quaker Chocolatiers, Titus Salt et al.
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aubrey
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Post by aubrey on Dec 5, 2009 16:28:08 GMT
Certain ones did - Saltaire is a great place (but he didn't like his workers drinking). And New Lanark (Robert Owen). But a universal system needed the Govt. Most employers refused to believe that a company like the ones Salt and Burton ran could be profitable.
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Post by sinistral on Dec 5, 2009 18:34:07 GMT
But - anti racism legislation is PC, isn't it? And anti disabled discrimination? No Aubrey,they're simply decent human behaviour. It is the PC brigade hijacking social advances(of no matter what era)and claiming them as their own,with the attendant monopoly of the high moral ground,that sticks in my craw. This is interesting. Do you happen to know whether the driver was referring to the woman or the wheelchair?That would make something of a difference,wouldn't it?Being a devotee of pornography Aubrey,I'm sure you would have heard the expression "look at the tits on that" Almost as though she wasn't alive,eh?Which of course begs the question is porn PC?.....but I digress. It was only a few years ago that wheelchairs,prams and pushchairs were extremely difficult to get on a bus.When I was a child women pushed prams,there was no other option. Are the air systems that allow the floor of buses to lower to pavement level PC?I would have said they were advances in technology....but there you go. |
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aubrey
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Post by aubrey on Dec 5, 2009 20:14:14 GMT
No, he was refering to the wheelchair thing (it was a strange thing - a kind of framework, which put her head at normal head height, though she didn't have any legs). But for him the wheelchair thing seemed to be her - at least that's what it seemed from what he said. You know - gesturing, and saying "That" - she was secondary. And people in wheelchairs reckon that they want to be seen, not the wheelchair, don't they?
The idea of anti-racism (etc) legislation is still bad to some people, or it was the last time I was listening to phone-ins. And back then (3 years back) people were complaining about wheelchair ramps on buses, as "They're never used." (That bloke may even have said somethking about PC, I can't remember; but that was the implication - that bus companies only have them to look good, not for any practical reason.) I've been on biuses when they've been used, and you grumble a bit - but you grumble a bit at everything on a bus.
I do see your point, though. There are some Conservative Historians (well, Andrew Roberts) who disagree with the liberal idea of history being a constant progress - you know, votes for women, Welfare State, The Race Discrimination Act, etc. I suppose I would like to think it is a long progress - I'd prefer to live now than the 50s, and the 50s rather than the 30s; and you could go back as far as you like - well, to the 1700s anyway. And even that seems better than the 1600s, and the 1500s. So that would mean that the more recent liberal laws would have happened anyway. So I don't know. I do know that it has taken ages for equal pay and disabled rights to be taken seriously.
Porn is fantasy, and that is rarely PC - have you ever read Nancy Friday's books? I've never said Look at the tits on that, not seriously - I'd be as likely to say something similiar about a man. My favourite porn is 70s French, which is mainly about strong women (actually, a lot if not most porn - especially if you leave out modern Gonzo (where the cameraman is a character), is about women. Porn fans are not interested in the sexual awakening of a young man, for eg, or the sexual adventures of an older woman. The mens' roles in these films are not that important; and they get paid a lot less than the woman, as well.
Sorry, I've gone on too long. (And messed up my brackets.)
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