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Post by cleefarqhuar on Sept 9, 2014 17:13:00 GMT
That the now predominant 'yes' vote for Scotch Independence is only half about the desire for independence
The other half is gross disillusionment at our so-called 'democracy', a disillusionment that exists across both sides of the border, the contempt felt for our 'leaders' who evidence such disdain for the electorate
We have the unbelievable spectacle of Darling and Brown telling the Scotch people (plus assorted Poles, Lithuanians, Pakistanis and Africans who will have a vote whereas the English do not!) that they will be 'better together' with the English, Welsh and Irish. These two Westminsterites 'served' in a Labour Government that allowed in 5 million immigrants, ruining the work prospects for the unskilled low paid British, exacerbating the housing crisis and putting house prices beyond the lower paid and increasing competition for council housing, and causing enormous strain on Public services, felt most keenly by whom? Why those low-paid British living in urban areas that attract immigrants. The response of te Lbour elite when people raised concerns about the effect of mass immigration? 'Bigots' - remember Mr Brown? Then Mr Brown went on a spending sore of colossal irresponsibility that we are still now paying for
Lets not make too much of the grossly. criminally irresponsible conduct of the Post-war Iraq where hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis died and the magnificent British Army suffered one of its most shameful defeats in Basra province.
Lets skim over Blair's broken promise of an EU referendum and the contempt that this showed for the British people
And Bullingon Davie is little better - he has shown gross contempt for the electorate in accordance with his self-proclaimed 'I am Blair's heir' - he has alienated the Conservative grass roots with his out-of -the-blue uncalled for unnecessary Gay Marriage Bill - he has alienated everyone with is broken promise on an EU referendum
Clagg of course is beneath contempt and can be ignored
So these three oleaginous creeps Bullingdon Davie, Clagg and Reded are going to Scotland to remind the Scotch that we will be 'better together' with - with whom? Why Bullingdon Davie, Clagg and Reded of course!
They have to do it of course, but they know as well as anyone else that it will be counter-productive, that the Scotch will be more likely to vote 'YES' as a result of their unwelcome visit
Let's hope that the Scotch vote overwhelmingly 'YES' to show Westminster that its undemocratic presence is time expired and that radical change that does not include the likes of Bullingdon Davie, Clagg and Reded is in the air!
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aqua
WH Member
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Post by aqua on Sept 9, 2014 22:07:23 GMT
I do of course have views on the Scottish independence referendum - but what or why is 'reded' please?
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Post by sweetjessicajane on Sept 10, 2014 5:05:51 GMT
I have various views, the main being, why are 5 million people allowed to vote on a matter that affects another 55 million?
(apologies rounded figures I know, but hope you see what I'm getting at)
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Post by Jonjel on Sept 10, 2014 8:08:27 GMT
I have various views, the main being, why are 5 million people allowed to vote on a matter that affects another 55 million? (apologies rounded figures I know, but hope you see what I'm getting at) Absolutely agree. I think the Scots might well have something to say if the English held a vote to chuck 'em out of the union.
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aqua
WH Member
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Post by aqua on Sept 10, 2014 22:28:40 GMT
I do of course have views on the Scottish independence referendum - but what or why is 'reded' please? Oh, doh! I know now. I thought you meant it as a verb: 'well-advised', like RedEthel wasn't. But perhaps you did? I would've liked to've been offered a vote, even if it was awarded a lower weighting than the votes of those resident in Scotland. I would particularly've liked people born in Scotland to've been offered a vote, weighted according to how many years they'd lived there before they went to other parts of the UK (rather than, eg, The Caribbean).
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Post by Angus Macsporran on Sept 11, 2014 8:16:13 GMT
I have various views, the main being, why are 5 million people allowed to vote on a matter that affects another 55 million? Please may I ask how it affects you?
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Post by sweetjessicajane on Sept 11, 2014 13:50:45 GMT
I live in England, why doesn't it affect me?
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Post by jean on Sept 11, 2014 13:59:26 GMT
The question, though, was how it affects you - and you haven't answered that.
One of the ways might be to inflict a Tory government on us for ever.
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Post by jean on Sept 11, 2014 14:16:18 GMT
Here's an interesting post from somewhere else on this topic:
This is a matter for the people of Scotland, nobody else. Of course Scotland's departure won't just affect them, and it is at least gratifying that this is now belatedly dawning on many south of the border after months, even years, of displaying very little interest in the matter.
For the UK to want to leave the EU would be quite as stupid as Scotland wanting to leave the UK. Would you seriously suggest that everyone in the EU should vote whether the UK stays or leaves?
There is a certain irony in the fact that English Eurosceptics who clamour for a YES/NO referendum on the EU, expecting it will result in a victory for their side, are often the very people who moan and whinge about the same rules for the Scottish referendum. John Redwood MP bleats that the two cases are not exactly the same. Well, two cases rarely are, but these two cases seem pretty similar to me and, in any case, the principles of national self-determination and any repatriation of powers are exactly the same!
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Post by cleefarqhuar on Sept 11, 2014 18:58:49 GMT
Here's an interesting post from somewhere else on this topic: One sentence is contradicted by the next An assertion without evidence Who has suggested this? There are certain essential differences of course, that make this assertion at best irrelevant Since when has a simple statement of fact become a 'bleat'? That is what Redmond implies too where he states 'the two cases are not exactly the same' The principles of national self-determination may be the same if it is admitted that Britain has surrendered its national self-determination in the same way as Scotland did in 1707. It should perhaps be underlined that neither the people of Scotland in 1707 nor the people of Britain in 1975 opted to surrender their self-determination
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Post by jean on Sept 11, 2014 21:13:33 GMT
"Would you seriously suggest that everyone in the EU should vote whether the UK stays or leaves?" Who has suggested this? Anyone who thinks the English should vote on whether the Scots should leave the UK ought to have suggested it, even if they haven't.
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aqua
WH Member
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Post by aqua on Sept 11, 2014 22:24:05 GMT
I don't see the cases as similar.
The UK is not physically part of the European continent; but England, Wales and Scotland share the same land mass; and people in the north of Ireland are very close to the west of Scotland and for obvious historical reasons share some DNA with the Scots, a large contingent of whom originated in Ireland.
Scotland is physically joined to England, and politically to the other British nations. And we share a history; not just the 300+ years of the Union. Doesn't this matter?
I don’t think most of the EU states, who are overseas and far away, and much more numerous than the UK nations, care too much for the UK, or we for them, unfortunately. If the EU were given a vote, most states would probably say ‘good riddance’.
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Post by stop and go on Sept 13, 2014 11:32:22 GMT
I have various views, the main being, why are 5 million people allowed to vote on a matter that affects another 55 million? Please may I ask how it affects you? I am one of the 55 million. I live in England. You have got me worried now Sweetjessicajane. Please can you say what effect all this could have on you and me?
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Post by allman on Sept 14, 2014 7:40:37 GMT
That the now predominant 'yes' vote for Scotch Independence is only half about the desire for independence The other half is gross disillusionment at our so-called 'democracy', a disillusionment that exists across both sides of the border, the contempt felt for our 'leaders' who evidence such disdain for the electorate We have the unbelievable spectacle of Darling and Brown telling the Scotch people (plus assorted Poles, Lithuanians, Pakistanis and Africans who will have a vote whereas the English do not!) that they will be 'better together' with the English, Welsh and Irish. These two Westminsterites 'served' in a Labour Government that allowed in 5 million immigrants, ruining the work prospects for the unskilled low paid British, exacerbating the housing crisis and putting house prices beyond the lower paid and increasing competition for council housing, and causing enormous strain on Public services, felt most keenly by whom? Why those low-paid British living in urban areas that attract immigrants. The response of te Lbour elite when people raised concerns about the effect of mass immigration? 'Bigots' - remember Mr Brown? Then Mr Brown went on a spending sore of colossal irresponsibility that we are still now paying for Lets not make too much of the grossly. criminally irresponsible conduct of the Post-war Iraq where hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis died and the magnificent British Army suffered one of its most shameful defeats in Basra province. Lets skim over Blair's broken promise of an EU referendum and the contempt that this showed for the British people And Bullingon Davie is little better - he has shown gross contempt for the electorate in accordance with his self-proclaimed 'I am Blair's heir' - he has alienated the Conservative grass roots with his out-of -the-blue uncalled for unnecessary Gay Marriage Bill - he has alienated everyone with is broken promise on an EU referendum Clagg of course is beneath contempt and can be ignored So these three oleaginous creeps Bullingdon Davie, Clagg and Reded are going to Scotland to remind the Scotch that we will be 'better together' with - with whom? Why Bullingdon Davie, Clagg and Reded of course! They have to do it of course, but they know as well as anyone else that it will be counter-productive, that the Scotch will be more likely to vote 'YES' as a result of their unwelcome visit Let's hope that the Scotch vote overwhelmingly 'YES' to show Westminster that its undemocratic presence is time expired and that radical change that does not include the likes of Bullingdon Davie, Clagg and Reded is in the air! Such Style! Such Humility. Such wisdom.
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Post by sweetjessicajane on Sept 16, 2014 10:49:09 GMT
Please may I ask how it affects you? I am one of the 55 million. I live in England. You have got me worried now Sweetjessicajane. Please can you say what effect all this could have on you and me? Apologies, I've been away so I am currently playing catch-up. I been away to a wedding, myself (English), my husband (Scottish) plus children (English - they were born in England). Even though the wedding was in England my Husband proudly wore his Kilt, the last few weeks have been quite stressful for him, he is repeatedly being asked how he is to vote - AND HE IS NOT ELIGIBLE TO VOTE. I have personal concerns - Dependent on the out come, will my husband still be able to work in the England/Wales/Northern Ireland? If the vote is YES, and Scotland doesn't join the EU, the freedom of movement won't apply, so will we have to organise a visa? Or because of my nationality will things be OK? There are sometimes stories in the national press about visa issues/problems spouses from non-EU countries. Will my Husband's UK passport still be valid, or will he have to apply for a Scottish one? What nationality will my children be? Born in England to an English mother, does that make them English? Could they be entitled to dual nationality? The conversation has been very much focused on the Scots and other nationalities living in Scotland who are able to vote, but not much about the affect on Scots who live and work outside Scotland who are unable to vote. As for a NO vote on Thursday, and the DEVO-MAX option. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Lothian_questionIn 1977 Tam Dalyell, raised the question, which subsequently became known as the "West Lothian Question", of the anomaly that Scottish MP's are able to vote in the Westminster Parliament on issues that do not affect their own Scottish constituents. I have heard only of a "movement" to change this anomaly www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29203693but as yet heard nothing about a party coming up with a policy. There is the further issue of the "Barnett formula" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnett_formulaWhich calculates how much of the UK budget is spent per head in each of the 4 nations. Currently Scotland gets a higher spend per capita than England
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