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Post by marchesarosa on Oct 20, 2014 13:24:35 GMT
It keeps me on my toes, nay, and aids my own understanding. Climate is complex and complicated. Explaining things to others, evn if they are ungrateful, helps me to hold the many interrelated factors together in my mind.
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Post by cleefarqhuar on Oct 20, 2014 15:34:32 GMT
It keeps me on my toes, nay, and aids my own understanding. Climate is complex and complicated. Explaining things to others, evn if they are ungrateful, helps me to hold the many interrelated factors together in my mind. Ah yes, I see As an Emeritus professional trainer I agree that the best way of commanding a subject is to reduce it to its simplest components, so that even the most stupid of students gets an insight into what is going on Good thinking Marchesa Your patience in the face of the most egregious abuse from Exco is also remarkable (another idiot by the way, more intelligent than Aubrey but with a mind so absolutely closed that he belongs to the same class)
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Post by jean on Oct 20, 2014 16:42:37 GMT
What do you mean: "indigineous inhabitants" Here's your answer, Nick. I hope you can make sense of it. What do you mean by indigenous parent, cleefy? I think Nick would like to know: Generally indigenous parents in the UK are white British Why you have to ask the question defeats me Do you have the same problem with indigenous Kenyans I wonder?t (This dos not exclude of course non-white British parents that have great concerns about seeing masses of non-English speaking pupils attending their childrens' schools -indeed many non-white British parents abhor the multicultural melting pots that many of our state schools embody and do their utmost to prevent their children attending such places) But then (you might argue) many Asians (that is really the people I am speaking of mainly) are notoriously the most racist people in the world, aren't they? One must just take a cursory glance at India to arrive at that rational conclusion(and ignore the bleatings of Alibahia Brown)
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Post by jessePinkman on Oct 20, 2014 19:40:57 GMT
A little unfair as the man obviously had had a couple of sherries when he wrote it!
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Post by ncsonde on Oct 21, 2014 23:46:22 GMT
You do presume too much. And talk some egregious rubbish. If there really is something of substance in your post that you'd like me to reply to, please point it out. I am completely disinterested in whether you reply or not. I've learned that much, from your previous replies. But, it was all of substance. If you want me to be more specific: you just don't get it. You're part of the priveleged intellectually cocooned class who will not, until it's forced upon them by those that do. That is, by those who suffer from your idealistic fantasies.
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Post by ncsonde on Oct 21, 2014 23:52:20 GMT
You don't seem to have grasped I'm talking to Marchesa. And you don't seem to have grasped that if you post on an open messageboard, you're also talking to any casual passer-by who doesn't know anything at all about the posters you name. Hoist. Petard. Yours.
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Post by ncsonde on Oct 22, 2014 0:18:17 GMT
What do you mean: "indigineous inhabitants" What I actually wrote was indigenous inhabitants - it's a category I struggle with myself, but I use it here because cleefy's rather fond of it. Yes, I see the irony of it has completely passed you by. Damn right you struggle with it. You're talking about the people of Wales you bizarrely believe are "indigineous" because thay speak Welsh? The Romans conquered them - or, rather, they conquered the people who were there before, then the people who'd been living in England ran away there...then the Normans conquered them...then the English... History, you see = groups competing. At no point did the Welsh, indigineous or not, but "the Welsh", invite these conquering groups, or even let them in. Come and live amongst us, do the jobs we can't be bothered to do, earn a pittance, then fuck off home if you would. Never happened. The "pace of change" is one thing - but what Aqua and you are talking about is a "pace of change" that is supposed to be a good thing. Counteracting bad things, like racism. That was always the idea, wasn't it? Make us all an indistinguishabe mix of brown? Along the way get rid of capitalism? No doubt. But in the course, England will have gone. What will be left? Who knows? Maybe it will be something workable - maybe. Why the English should be expected to accept as a moral principle the rapid destruction of their national identity, culture, and territorial sovereignty purely as a result of behind-the-scenes political manipulations, is beyond me - or anyone else, as far as I can tell. Alas, you and Aqua do not have history on your side. All this is a very very novel experiment. Maybe it'll work out, evenatually, after a lot of upheaval and strife. As you say, who knows. The point is, it was all totally unnnecessary - your "seeing" won over everyone else's, by government diktat, without consultation or foresight - you or rather people who rosily thought like you simply took a risk, based on a wild hope that your idealism was firmly founded, and would eventually spread out amongst everyone else who didn't share it. All history supports my view, wherever you look in the world. Your view applies only in certain very modern megacities, themselves the product of mass immigration - there are reaons that it works to the extent that it does in those places, but none that will give you any comfort, I suspect. Yes, it is. There are many towns, cities and boroughs where white British are now in the minority. There are many towns and cities and boroughs where the recent immigrant populations are so concentrated - as naturally they will - that English is a minority language heard in those districts. Most of inner city London, for example. Bangor. So? Quite. English is the lingua franca, even in Bangor. Or anywhere else in Wales. If the WNO get away with it, I'm surprised. No publicly funded body can. It's the law. What you need to concentrate on, and absorb if you can, is the "pedantic" bit. No - it's the fact he's illustrating with his less-than-scientifically-rigorous language (nothing wrong with that, mind) that are fear-inducing. To him, at any rate. And me. Not you, perhaps, but, like Aqua, you're constitutionally already persuaded not to be. Most people aren't like you and Aqua, though, you see. I don;t even think you and Aqua are, to be frank, faced with the reality of your ideas. But that's another story.
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Post by ncsonde on Oct 22, 2014 1:27:27 GMT
What do you mean: "indigineous inhabitants" Here's your answer, Nick. I hope you can make sense of it. Generally indigenous parents in the UK are white British Why you have to ask the question defeats me Do you have the same problem with indigenous Kenyans I wonder?t (This dos not exclude of course non-white British parents that have great concerns about seeing masses of non-English speaking pupils attending their childrens' schools -indeed many non-white British parents abhor the multicultural melting pots that many of our state schools embody and do their utmost to prevent their children attending such places) But then (you might argue) many Asians (that is really the people I am speaking of mainly) are notoriously the most racist people in the world, aren't they? One must just take a cursory glance at India to arrive at that rational conclusion(and ignore the bleatings of Alibahia Brown) And the application to Wales is what? I don't think even you would classify anyone as "indigenous Welsh" who was not also in the set, "white British", would you? Here's your problem. It's sort of your "racist" problem, really, though I'd never be as crude and arrogant and gratuitously insulting (not to mention law-breaking) as to call you a racist, per se (though your recent characterisation of all Welsh people as arsonists might make me pause to ponder, if I was inclined to be as wilfully idiotic as some). Because I'm kind of tolerant of differing views. I had a partner for 14 years who could speak Welsh far better than anyone she ever spoke it with (it's a somewhat not-generally-spoken about fact that Welsh is...well, primitive, for want of a better word, and even those who claim to speak it don't do so very well - fact, I said) but who was actually born in London, and only moved to Wales when she was two. Her brother, a couple of years older, couldn't speak a word of Welsh - or, if he could, chose not to: he resisted it, quite sensibly. I on the other hand can't speak Welsh either, or only a smattering, enough to be polite; yet I was born in Ynysyybwl; as was my mother; as was both my maternal grnadparents; as was my grandmother's parents; all the way back to the mid-19th Century. The lineage of those great-grandparents go back to the Swansea copper rush - and, as far as can be told, even further. This takes my "Welsh" lineage back to the 18th Century. I don't speak Welsh - neither did my mother, being from the Valleys (where to speak Welsh was seen as a definite bogtrotting no-no), nor did her parents, or their parents, etcetera. A woman born in Fulham who moved there in the late 60s and who had the language taught her at school, on the other hand, you claim qualifies as "indigineous" as opposed to me, and my mother, and her parents, and their parents, and their parents...in fact, to the vast majority of people who live in Wales. Never mind the Norhern Irish, to whom your peculiar ahistorical definiton also applies - or the Cornish - or even the Scots. Presumably you'd cheer compulsory teaching of classes through Gaelic in Edinburgh, and in Belfast? And why stop there? Exactly the same logic would lead to Harvard classes being delivered in Algonquin or Micmac, wouldn't it? And every lesson in Sydney being delivered in Aborigine?
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Post by sweetjessicajane on Oct 22, 2014 10:02:25 GMT
www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-2801222/Ukip-wouldnt-spooked-Maggie.htmlHow can we have a proper debate about the EU and mass immigration, when one side dismisses the other side as ignorant and bigoted or racist? There are a large number of people in the UK who have concerns about the number of people coming to this country, those concerns should be acknowledged and discussed, to simply dismiss them doesn't make the concerns go away. Also the people with the most concerns, seem to have no voice except in the form of Ukip, and they are against people with a voice who don't live in their world. It is very easy to say mass immigration is a good thing, when you have a job, a house, access to schools and health services.
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Post by cleefarqhuar on Oct 22, 2014 11:25:01 GMT
www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-2801222/Ukip-wouldnt-spooked-Maggie.htmlHow can we have a proper debate about the EU and mass immigration, when one side dismisses the other side as ignorant and bigoted or racist? There are a large number of people in the UK who have concerns about the number of people coming to this country, those concerns should be acknowledged and discussed, to simply dismiss them doesn't make the concerns go away. Also the people with the most concerns, seem to have no voice except in the form of Ukip, and they are against people with a voice who don't live in their world. It is very easy to say mass immigration is a good thing, when you have a job, a house, access to schools and health services. Well said SJJ 'Ignorance and bigotry' is of course the province of the 'populist' mob and must be ignored whilst their betters decide what is best for them ( will allow the ambiguity of 'them ' to remain)
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Post by jean on Oct 22, 2014 14:52:02 GMT
For if we are going to talk about the people who are here already as against the new arrivals, how do you suggest we categorise the 'people who object to immigration?' You're talking about the people of Wales you bizarrely believe are "indigineous" because thay speak Welsh? No - there's far more to it than that. As you say, That's the point, Nick, and that's the irony - it's no easier to pinpoint the indigenous English now than it was to pinpoint the indigenous Welsh at various points in the past. Is it colour? Is it language? Is it the subtle genetic difference, often barely detectable to the naked eye, between a British person and, say, a Pole? It was certainly an idea the marchesa was rather fond of - don't you remember? As to the language thing: ...English is the least heard language in many towns and cities... Well, neither statement is true, is it? No it isn't, Nick, and I think that you do really know that, which makes your fear-mongering even more reprehensible. The last time we talked about Inner-city London, I seem to remember that it was the disruptive effect of (English-speaking) Black youth in Catford we were warned against, not Poles in Ealing. Or have you got somewhere else in mind? Really, you should let us know. (Have to go now. More later, possibly.)
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Post by jean on Oct 22, 2014 23:08:49 GMT
What you need to concentrate on, and absorb if you can, is the "pedantic" bit. No, Nick. What I offer you is accuracy and precision, which you and cleefy prefer to call pedantry because it scrutinises mercilessly your wild unevidenced statements. If I were really being pedantic I'd comment on your persistent misspelling of indigenous, but I don't, except now, when I'm looking for an example of pointless pedantry.
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Post by jean on Oct 22, 2014 23:22:25 GMT
...your recent characterisation of all Welsh people as arsonists... You are referring to this exchange, I take it? They have not got used to it hence Plaid Cymru. To this I replied The majority have, marchesa. They don't even burn cottages owned by English incomers any more. I see I wasn't pedantic enough there, so allow me to correct the erroneous impression you've formed. I should have said: The majority have got used to the 'alien culture in their midst', marchesa. Even that small number of extremists who used to go around burning cottages owned by English incomers don't do it any more.
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Post by jean on Oct 22, 2014 23:28:06 GMT
This is veryinteresting: (it's a somewhat not-generally-spoken about fact that Welsh is...well, primitive, for want of a better word, and even those who claim to speak it don't do so very well - fact, I said) Can you expand a bit on what you mean by primitive? Do you mean retaining the sort of morphological characteristics which English has long abandoned? Or lacking suitable vocabulary with which to discuss quantum mechanics? Or what?
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Post by ncsonde on Oct 23, 2014 5:09:37 GMT
You're talking about the people of Wales you bizarrely believe are "indigineous" because thay speak Welsh? No - there's far more to it than that. As you say, That's the point, Nick, and that's the irony - it's no easier to pinpoint the indigenous English now than it was to pinpoint the indigenous Welsh at various points in the past. No - the point is that it's extremely easy to pinpoint the indigenous English. It turns out that they're virtually identical to the indigenous Welsh, that's all. Yes, you've got it. It's genetic. She was taught at a time and place when this was the PC of its day. Like you. Yes, it is. I don't know why you insist it isn't! At the time of the Eastleigh by-election a headmaster of a primary school in Southampton informed the audience on a TV debate on immigration that over 90% of his pupils now did not speak English. Southampton. Not a place that immediately springs to mind when one thinks of heavily ethnically populated towns. I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you? There's no "fear-mongering", you silly woman. It's this sort of snide insult that accounts for UKIP's growing success. Read SJ's post and try to absorb it. Your memory is as usual faulty. As I and Nay have politely tried to point out to you, you're arguing entirely off the point because of your typical ridiculous pedantry. I could go to Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Delhi, Islamabad, Nairobi, Cape Town, Taiwan, &c &c and find that most people can and often do speak English. That's just not the point. I have explained the point, as has Nay, many times - and, yes, the last time with you involved some discussion of Black and Asian youth, alienated from their host culture, forming sub-cultures of their own, in direct competition with it. Since then we've had the Rotherham report - something I absolutely know you would have vehemently denied could be possible, and would have called anyone who suggested involved "a racial element", as the report refers to it, a reprehensible fear-mongering racist. You know you would - I bet you've done more or less that on this very board, haven't you?
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