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Post by cleefarqhuar on Jul 25, 2014 8:12:00 GMT
It simply cannot go on like this can it, Israel?
You simply cannot continue to keep complete populations under your heel, in some cases in the most appalling conditions
You simply cannot continue to steal other people's land and yet live in peace with those you steal from
You simply cannot continue to steal and kill, and kill to steal
You simply cannot continue and continue to invade urban areas causing grotesque injury and death in order ‘to live in peace’
Yes you have the right to defend yourself, Israel, but others living in the lands you brutally occupy or contain also have rights
The Palestinians will not go away Israel, they will always be there, and as with freedom movements throughout history will continue to seek their own freedom; Hamas is simply the latest manifestation of their protest
Kill all Hamas and the problem will not go away, Israel; as with the PFLO. the PLO and Al Fatah, these were once too your enemies that must be eliminated, so others will inevitably arise if you eliminate Hamas
Meanwhile you know your mass killings in order to achieve your ends are counter-productive, Israel
Yes you may well eliminate Hamas, but in killing hundred of innocents to achieve your end you create yet more terrorists, yet more implacable hatred
You know that this is the aim of Hamas, Israel, and you play into their hands
Deep in your heart Israel, you know the only way out of this grotesque roundabout of killing is a withdrawal from the occupied territories and a proper recognition of a combined Gaza and West Bank and an international guarantee of your security
You know that is the only humanitarian answer Israel.
Otherwise you are damned Israel and as your current guarantor, the USA wanes in power, so you damnation will become a reality
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Post by aquatic on Jul 25, 2014 22:17:35 GMT
To me, the overkill amounts to genocide, in cruel measure.
Why, oh why, Israel?
For god's sake, why?
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Post by ncsonde on Jul 26, 2014 17:11:55 GMT
To me, the overkill amounts to genocide, in cruel measure. Absurd - no, obscene - hyperbole. Consult a dictionary. Before you swoon and faint, Hermione, try putting yourself in their shoes for a moment. |
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Post by ncsonde on Jul 26, 2014 17:24:33 GMT
It simply cannot go on like this can it, Israel? You simply cannot continue to keep complete populations under your heel, in some cases in the most appalling conditions You simply cannot continue to steal other people's land and yet live in peace with those you steal from You simply cannot continue to steal and kill, and kill to steal You simply cannot continue and continue to invade urban areas causing grotesque injury and death in order ‘to live in peace’ Yes you have the right to defend yourself, Israel, but others living in the lands you brutally occupy or contain also have rights The Palestinians will not go away Israel, they will always be there, and as with freedom movements throughout history will continue to seek their own freedom; Hamas is simply the latest manifestation of their protest Kill all Hamas and the problem will not go away, Israel; as with the PFLO. the PLO and Al Fatah, these were once too your enemies that must be eliminated, so others will inevitably arise if you eliminate Hamas Meanwhile you know your mass killings in order to achieve your ends are counter-productive, Israel Yes you may well eliminate Hamas, but in killing hundred of innocents to achieve your end you create yet more terrorists, yet more implacable hatred You know that this is the aim of Hamas, Israel, and you play into their hands Deep in your heart Israel, you know the only way out of this grotesque roundabout of killing is a withdrawal from the occupied territories and a proper recognition of a combined Gaza and West Bank and an international guarantee of your security You know that is the only humanitarian answer Israel. Otherwise you are damned Israel and as your current guarantor, the USA wanes in power, so you damnation will become a reality Shall we cut the amateur dramatics and discuss the matter seriously, gentlemen? Without the outrageous prejudicial premises and one-sided perspectives? The issue is: what choice does Israel have? Clearly, it cannot allow itself to be bombarded by a thousand rockets every month without some sort of action. You agree, presumably? No nation on Earth would allow such a situation to continue unabated - right? What, then, to do? Any other nation on Earth would move in and maintain through whatever force is necessary tight policing of Gaza. Israel isn't allowed to do this. It's not allowed to fight a war and conclude it, as every other nation on Earth would do, and have done, and, in fact, are doing, right now, in various parts of the globe. A fair rational person might ask: why? Why is Israel and Israel alone supposed to uphold such superhuman, angelic standards? But we're not dealing with a fair, rational situation. We're dealing with a nation of Jews, aren't we? Yes. They're different. They don't belong. They've "stolen" the land they call theirs. They don't belong - that's the starting premise, so clearly and unashamedly stated. Well - the Israelis don't accept that, surprisingly enough, and will never accept it. They won't simply cease to exist, and be driven into the sea. They won't ever accept what Hamas demand: an end to their very existence. Neither would you. Live with it. |
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Post by cleefarqhuar on Jul 26, 2014 17:55:18 GMT
Shall we cut the amateur dramatics and discuss the matter seriously, gentlemen? As ever on this subject Nick, I am very serious Without the outrageous prejudicial premises and one-sided perspectives? One-sided perhaps. Prejudicial? I am judging after a number of such events Outrageous? No doubt some are outraged - so be it The issue is: what choice does Israel have? Exactly my point Clearly, it cannot allow itself to be bombarded by a thousand rockets every month without some sort of action. You agree, presumably? Yes I agree Any other nation on Earth would move in and maintain through whatever force is necessary tight policing of Gaza. Not necessarily. Britain was faced with analogous situations in Palestine; it eventually recognised that repressive barbarity was not the answer Israel isn't allowed to do this. It's not allowed to fight a war and conclude it, as every other nation on Earth would do No . Britain did not do that in Palestine, so your assertion is incorrect (it only takes one counter-example to disprove such assertions) But we're not dealing with a fair, rational situation. We're dealing with a nation of Jews, aren't we? Yes. That is true, but relevant only because it is a Jewish State. It is their treatment of the Palestinians that is questionable They're different. They don't belong. They've "stolen" the land they call theirs. They don't belong - that's the starting premise No it is not, not with me anyway. My starting premise is the appalling way they have treated the Palestinians for 70 years Nice to see you back Nick [/quote] |
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Post by aquatic on Jul 27, 2014 0:31:46 GMT
To me, the overkill amounts to genocide, in cruel measure. Absurd - no, obscene - hyperbole. Consult a dictionary. I think your use of 'obscene' and 'hyperbole' are inappropriate. My 'To me, the overkill amounts to genocide, in cruel measure' is appropriate. It's all a matter of opinion, tho - depending on what dictionary (and morality) you choose to consult. |
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Post by aquatic on Jul 27, 2014 0:43:47 GMT
Before you swoon and faint, Hermione, try putting yourself in their shoes for a moment. Don't Hermione me! JKR's opus is anathema (feel free to consult a dictionary). And don't think I haven't put myself in their shoes and haven't got good reason to be ashamed for them now. |
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Post by ncsonde on Jul 27, 2014 1:00:34 GMT
Shall we cut the amateur dramatics and discuss the matter seriously, gentlemen? As ever on this subject Nick, I am very serious Good. I did think as much, That was why I was a little surprised by your rhetorical style. I put it that such a style, easily misinterpreted as histrionic if you will, is not best appropriate to such a situation. Calm, rational, diplomatic, scrupulously fair discourse is required. In my opinion. Without the outrageous prejudicial premises and one-sided perspectives? I repeat: the issue is: what choice does Israel have? Until you address this question, your outrage and condemnation is merely prejudicial. Give an alternative course of action. The issue is: what choice does Israel have? Exactly my point Huh? If you agree with its response, what point in your outrage? Why is your wailing not addressed to Hamas and the Palestinian leadership? Good. As on previous occasions we've hashed this issue out, I find your historical perspective somewhat skewed. This is inevitable, I suppose. But in this instance you'll agree that Britain left Palestine as quickly as it could. It didn;t belong there; there was nothing it could do. And it was able to leave to a place hundreds of miles away, where it could indeed wash its hands of the entire mess. Not like, say, Northern Ireland. Yes? You say "not necessarily" to may contention. I agree to this extent. Many other nations would simply wipe Gaza off the face of the map. Many others would kill its inhabitants, or deport them to other places, such as the West Bank: they'd remove the threat that way. But any civilised nation, faced with such aggression, would invade, occupy, police. There is no contrary example in history; and I doubt if there ever will be. A completely different situation. A mandate being run out on; as in India, where we were content to allow the inhabitants we so irresponsibly left to sort out their own mess to slaughter each other, men women and children, to a death-toll of at least a million and a half. Palestine wasn't British, as Israel is Israeli. The analogous situation is with Germany and WWII. You are suggesting that Britain should not have defended itself; should not have bombed German cities; should not have defeated the Nazis. What treatment are you questioning, specifically? Okay - I've misunderstood some of your claims over the years, then, and I apologise. I still don't know what you're talking about. For most of those 70 years they've been in a state of war with "the Palestinians." Given that unsought for misfortune, I consider that they've treated "the Palestinians" remarkably well - better than any other nation at war has ever done to their enemies, that's for sure. Gaza isn't Dresden, Hamburg, Cologne, Tokyo, or Hiroshima. Same to you. I was getting worried about you. [/quote] [/quote] |
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Post by ncsonde on Jul 27, 2014 1:06:53 GMT
Absurd - no, obscene - hyperbole. Consult a dictionary. I think your use of 'obscene' and 'hyperbole' are inappropriate. Well I don't. A thousand or so victims in an urban confilct is not "genocide". To use such a term, of the Israelis of all people, is hyperbolic, and it's obscene. Unless your name is Irivng or Leuchter, by any chance? As I said - consult a dictionary. There's no telling what your "morality" might be. But if you can find any dictionary that terms waging a limited defensive incursion "genocide" then I'd be interested in learning about it. |
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Post by ncsonde on Jul 27, 2014 1:13:00 GMT
Before you swoon and faint, Hermione, try putting yourself in their shoes for a moment. Don't Hermione me! JKR's opus is anathema (feel free to consult a dictionary). Wrong Hermione. Never mind. Try someone from...er...you know that Gwynneth Paltrow woman? The actress? Are you familiar with her acceptance speech whan she won the Academy Award trophy for her dramatic performance in that there film? That's you, that is. Okay then. As I said - what would you do instead? Less overacting and armchair moralising and a little more realistic analysis and helpful suggestion, if you please. What is Israel supposed to do? That you wouldn't be "ashamed" of? |
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Post by Eleston on Jul 27, 2014 15:54:09 GMT
I do so love it when a person is having the Michael taken and he doesn't realise.  |
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Post by cleefarqhuar on Jul 28, 2014 13:16:27 GMT
I repeat: the issue is: what choice does Israel have? Until you address this question, your outrage and condemnation is merely prejudicial. The whole point of my OP is that there are alternatives to brutal repression, that Isreal’s current actions offer no real solution to the problems of the area The issue is: what choice does Israel have? Huh? If you agree with its response, what point in your outrage? I did not say that I agree with Israel’s response I am suggesting that there must be other solutions – this brutality simply cannot continue indefinitely As on previous occasions we've hashed this issue out, I find your historical perspective somewhat skewed. This is inevitable, I suppose. But in this instance you'll agree that Britain left Palestine as quickly as it could. Yes it did , for a variety of reasons It didn;t belong there; there was nothing it could do It did belong there it had a mandate to govern the region. It could easily have stopped the Zionist uprising in tracks, just as it did the Arab uprising in 1939 …..where it could indeed wash its hands of the entire mess. Indeed Many others would kill its inhabitants, or deport them to other places, such as the West Bank: they'd remove the threat that way. But any civilised nation, faced with such aggression, would invade, occupy, police. There is no contrary example in history; and I doubt if there ever will be. There are contra-examples in abundance. The British Empire faced terrorist attacks, and in the end realised that the only path to true peace was to acceded to the demands for independence and sovereignty The analogous situation is with Germany and WWII. You are suggesting that Britain should not have defended itself; should not have bombed German cities; should not have defeated the Nazis. I disagree. The Palestinian people have the right to self-determination and sovereignty Had Britain occupied German territory and called it Britain, then ventured into Germany annexing chunks of its land as it saw fit and building English ‘settlements’ ; had Britain kept an area of Germany as an open prison and occupied other areas of Germany as a ’peace buffer’, then Germany’s aggression might have been justified What treatment are you questioning, specifically? The occupation of the WB, the open-prison-sewer that is Gaza, the annexing of WB land with ‘settlements’ – the arbitrary destruction of Arab property, the deportation of Palestinians, the periodic closure of Arab schools and universities, the mas arrest of Palestinians without charge, the shooting of schoolkids rioting with rocks, the paucity of education provision, the contempt or disregard shown for Palestinian lives in comparison to Isreali, the skimpy rationing of water to Palestinians whilst the ‘settlements’ are green oases - in other words the suppression of a whole people by the use of force |
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Post by marchesarosa on Jul 28, 2014 13:31:29 GMT
I have no sympathy with the Gazans myself. The majority have squatted in what amounts to a refugee camp for generation after generation breeding incontinently so that now 60 per cent of them are children and teenagers. The excessive reporting on deaths of children in Gaza would be more comprehensible if the audience knew this. Is it part of the journalists job to explain facts like this? It should be.
After WWI and WWII in Europe almost every national border changed and countless millions of people were left stateless, homeless, impoverished and refugees. Where are those millions today? Still stagnating in refugee camps? No. Comfortably contributing to the new nations and societies they joined - i.e. productive and happy citizens. Why are the Gazans different? What weird tune do they dance to? Subsidised by the UN they think if they wait long enough they will get what they want. WRONG! They have picked the wrong adversary. But aside from that, why does this benighted cul de sac of humanity not take itself off to more congenial climes? Oh wait... they have made themselves (in canine terms) "unhomeable" haven't they, thanks to their unreasonable behaviour. And, no, it is no excuse to remind us that they "have lost their homeland". Millions over history "have lost their homelands" and they MOVED ON and created new lives for themselves benefitting not only themselves but the societies that they joined.
All you closet antisemites weeping and wailing over the poor Palestinians should consider the way in which other peoples have dealt with dispossession and ask yourselves why this situation is different.
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Post by jean on Jul 28, 2014 15:30:29 GMT
After WWI and WWII in Europe almost every national border changed and countless millions of people were left stateless, homeless, impoverished and refugees. Where are those millions today? Still stagnating in refugee camps? No. Comfortably contributing to the new nations and societies they joined - i.e. productive and happy citizens. Why are the Gazans different? That is a very good point, and anyone who has spent time in parts of continental Europe cannot be unaware of it. However I disagree with the marchesa's answer to her own question. It is not so much that the Gazans have made themselves..."unhomeable" as that the countries which were assumed to be ready to give them homes (such as the former Transjordan, later the independent state of Jordan) preferred to keep them in refugee camps rather than take them in. There's more to it than that of course, but it's a factor that should not be forgotten. |
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MiddleEastPeaceEnvoy
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Post by MiddleEastPeaceEnvoy on Jul 28, 2014 21:21:56 GMT
I have no sympathy with the Gazans myself. The majority have squatted in what amounts to a refugee camp for generation after generation breeding incontinently so that now 60 per cent of them are children and teenagers. The excessive reporting on deaths of children in Gaza would be more comprehensible if the audience knew this. If only those silly (but dead) children would but take this on board! I'm sure it would be of some comfort to them. They should stop their whining. When I were a lass there'd often be kids blown to bits on't beach and we thought nowt about it. |
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