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Post by ncsonde on Jul 30, 2014 15:36:46 GMT
Yes. lets In NI in 45 years, 1879 civilians were killed (many by the IRA or its offshoots) In Israel /Palestine during the 1st intifada LASTING 4 YEARS, 1200 Palestinians were killed by Isreali forces During the 2ND Intifada OF 5 YEARS DURATION 3135 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces During the LAST 2 WEEKS an estimated 800 civilians have been killed by Israeli forces These figures illustrate bleakly the thuggery of the Isreali use of force and he contempt that they have for the lives of their neighbours Dear oh dear. According to the UN and Amnesty, we killed more civilians than that in Baghdad within an hour. No phone calls and text messages either.
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Post by ncsonde on Jul 30, 2014 15:40:36 GMT
Is the assurance of many(unnamed) informed observers really sufficient? No, not in itself, but if Israel really wants a lasting peace is it better to explore those posibilities rather than kill Palestinains in their thousands? If Hamas were serious about removing this clause from their constitution, they could themselves specify the conditions under which they would do it. But they never have. Hamas is not an innocent party by any means, but does Israel really want peace or would it rather continue killing Palestinians if they resist and stealing their land when they do not? They want peace. They've offered peace many times. Eventually the peace that is reached will be the very peace they've offered. What they will not accept is their destruction. Rather than that, they'll have to kill their enemies, regretfully killing some innocents along the way, as in any war.
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Post by aquatic on Jul 30, 2014 23:52:45 GMT
I use the word anti-Semite since there seems no other aspect of this "dispossession" that can account for the world-wide interest in it. Who cried for the Armenians, the Poles, the Greeks sent packing from their homes? Certainly not the world and his wife plus the UN demanding re-instatement. I have no sympathy with the Gazans myself. All you closet antisemites weeping and wailing over the poor Palestinians should consider the way in which other peoples have dealt with dispossession and ask yourselves why this situation is different. I'm not an anti-semite. Far from it. As you sort-of acknowledge by implying you were talking about ‘world-wide interest in it’, as below. But you had actually accused fellow boarders, including me, of being anti-semitic, as above. Prat, prat, prat. I use the word anti-Semite since there seems no other aspect of this "dispossession" that can account for the world-wide interest in it.
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Post by ncsonde on Jul 31, 2014 1:12:50 GMT
I'm not an anti-semite. Far from it. As you sort-of acknowledge by implying you were talking about ‘world-wide interest in it’, as below. But you had actually accused fellow boarders, including me, of being anti-semitic, as above. Of course you're not, no one is suggesting you're anything other than completely impartial. We all remember the occasions you've proclaimed, Why oh why, you Tutsi! and, Why oh why, you beastly Tamils! or Why oh why, you Syrian insurgents? And the Why oh why, you occupants of the Twin Towers, how could you! The world is a beastly place, my friend. Those of a sensitive and more refined disposition suffer most of all, of course. Bear up, soldier.
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Post by cleefarqhuar on Jul 31, 2014 7:34:48 GMT
Dear oh dear. According to the UN and Amnesty, we killed more civilians than that in Baghdad within an hour. No phone calls and text messages either. It is claimed that 300 Iraqi civilians were killed by the British during theIraq invasion
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Post by cleefarqhuar on Jul 31, 2014 7:57:24 GMT
I use the word anti-Semite since there seems no other aspect of this "dispossession" that can account for the world-wide interest in it. Perhaps the 'world-wide interest' (are you sure you do not mean Western interest?) is because Israel claims to be a Western democracy. It is largely populated by Europeans and has the forms of a Western democracy and is certainly a proxy for the USA- it even takes part in teh Eurovision Song Contest for God's sake (surely the hallmark of Western civilisation) Fair enough Now we in the comfortable West expect the Husseins, the Amins and assorted monsters to bomb and bombard urban areas in pursuit of guerrillas; we expect those regimes to shoot dead stone-throwing youths on the streets, we expect such people to claim other's lands as their own, we expect them to pursue their aim no matter what the death toll of their 'enemies', we expect them to disregard International Law Then we witness our 'Western democracy' doing exactly the same thing on a periodic basis- killing thousands of et people that they keep in subjugation in the pursuit of 'Israel's security' Perhaps that is why we in the west are so interested in the barbaric Israel/Palestinian conflict Perhaps it has nothing whatsoever to do with anti-semitism
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Post by cleefarqhuar on Jul 31, 2014 7:58:05 GMT
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Post by cleefarqhuar on Jul 31, 2014 11:47:06 GMT
Yes. lets In NI in 45 years, 1879 civilians were killed (many by the IRA or its offshoots) In Israel /Palestine during the 1st intifada LASTING 4 YEARS, 1200 Palestinians were killed by Isreali forces During the 2ND Intifada OF 5 YEARS DURATION 3135 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces During the LAST 2 WEEKS an estimated 800 civilians have been killed by Israeli forces These figures illustrate bleakly the thuggery of the Isreali use of force and he contempt that they have for the lives of their neighbours Let me provide some perspective to these figures: From UN data, the post-1967 avoidable mortality (excess mortality) in the Occupied Palestinian Territories totals 300,000 and the post-1967 under-5 infant mortality 183,000 (of which 90% has been avoidable) - as compared to 2,178 post-1967 Israeli terrorism deaths (Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs figures). My comment: These deaths since 1967 correspond roughly to the same period as the British NI problems (excess m0rtality is the number of deaths that exceed the norm fr a well regulated, peaceful country
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Post by Jonjel on Jul 31, 2014 13:45:22 GMT
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Post by cleefarqhuar on Jul 31, 2014 15:09:06 GMT
Are you suggesting that such atrocities as committed by Hamas fully justifies the masss killings of Palestinians? There are atrocities on both sides, of that we are all aware, but the thuggish Isreali killings of thousands of Palestinians is not the action of the responsible 'western' democracy that Israel claims to be
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Post by Jonjel on Jul 31, 2014 15:17:49 GMT
Are you suggesting that such atrocities as committed by Hamas fully justifies the masss killings of Palestinians? There are atrocities on both sides, of that we are all aware, but the thuggish Isreali killings of thousands of Palestinians is not the action of the responsible 'western' democracy that Israel claims to be No, but 'Mass Killings is not what is going on. Israel would have had mass indiscriminate killings but for iron dome and air raid shelters. Israel has not vowed to wipe Gaza off the map. Hamas has the stated aim of doing that to Israel. Thuggish Israeli killings? ALL armies are thugs, and behave so, particularly when off camera.
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Post by cleefarqhuar on Jul 31, 2014 15:46:47 GMT
No, but 'Mass Killings is not what is going on. The 'mass killings' is an ongoing process. 300,000 Palestinians killed since 1967 Israel would have had mass indiscriminate killings but for iron dome and air raid shelters. Yes, and if they had suffered mass killing then surelt that would have been as equally repugnant as the actual mass killing of Palestinians? Israel has not vowed to wipe Gaza off the map. Hamas has the stated aim of doing that to Israel. This is true. Do you honestly think that alone justifies the mass killing of Palestinians? Thuggish Israeli killings? ALL armies are thugs, and behave so, particularly when off camera. I did not say the Israeli Army are thugs (but they are now thoroughly brutalised).The thuggishness lies in the Governments use of that Army All armies are certainly not thugs Soldiering can be a very honourable profession - all armies are certainly not thugs
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Post by marchesarosa on Jul 31, 2014 15:52:49 GMT
This attempt to portray the Israel/Palestine problem as something totally without precedent in world history is banal and simply the excuse for latent and manifest anti-Semites to grab the headlines with this silly numbers game.
MILLIONS of people over the centuries and round the world have lost their home and/or homelands and have "MOVED ON". It is the NORM to "MOVE ON". The human spirit impels us to "MOVE ON" from painful and unsatisfactory situations. Jews themselves could teach the Palestinians lessons about "MOVING ON" Some examples of those who have "MOVED ON" - Muslims from India and Hindus from Pakistan in 1947, Ugandan and Kenyan Asians, Greeks from Turkey post WWI, Armenians from Turkey 1918-1923. Jews from Arab/Muslim lands post 1948. The only reason the Gazans have refused to "MOVE ON" is they are subsidised by the UN and EU to STAY PUT. There are many more Palestinians round the world enjoying proper civilised lives than are living in Gaza. These are the ones who had the nous to get up and go - the normal response to their situation. The remainder should join them as fast as feasibly possible. Palestinians should be encouraged to get out from under thumb of Hamas and start a civilised existence elsewhere.
I am tired of the regular angst fest from all the usual suspects every time Israel defends itself from Hamas et al. Who but the most intransigent, unreasonable, single-mindedly fundamentalist and demanding would remain squatting as refugees generation after generation when there is an alternative? That is what the angst ridden should be asking themselves, not taking the opportunity to take another swing at Israel. I'm tired of hearing Gaza described as a prison. It is not. There are opportunities to move out and these should be encouraged and assisted rather than pursuing the phoney David and Goliath scenario.
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Post by cleefarqhuar on Jul 31, 2014 18:55:50 GMT
This attempt to portray the Israel/Palestine problem as something totally without precedent in world history Is utter nonsense and your invention. No-one has said any such thing The only reason the Gazans have refused to "MOVE ON" is they are subsidised by the UN and EU to STAY PUT. How do you know? I suggest that this is your inference Palestinians should be encouraged to get out from under thumb of Hamas and start a civilised existence elsewhere. You do realise that Hamas was democratically elected in Gaza? I am tired of the regular angst fest from all the usual suspects every time Israel defends itself from Hamas et al. Not so tired as to prevent you fronm ralying and pouring abuse on those you disagree with tho'? Who but the most intransigent, unreasonable, single-mindedly fundamentalist and demanding would remain squatting as refugees generation after generation when there is an alternative? Who but? Then listen and I will tell you 'who but' Those whose homes have been usurped and stolen by waves of arrogant foreigners that kill and steal Those that have a dream of their homeland founded on tales of that place told to them by their grandfathers and mothers and songs and poems Those that are penned in by an aggressive usurper that hates them and has expansionist aims that exclude them Those that have a sense of history of their Motherland and weep for the plight of their children Of whom do I speak? Why, the Jews of course! Why would you deny the Palestinians that which you so readily grant the Jewish people? That is what the angst ridden should be asking themselves Indeed. And perhaps those that have no angst as well? I'm tired of hearing Gaza described as a prison. It is not. There are opportunities to move out and these should be encouraged and assisted rather than pursuing the phoney David and Goliath scenario. Do you mean that they should seek to return to their homeland as did the Jewish people? That they should pursue this end by terrorisn , as did the Jews? Or do the Jews hold a special place in your pantheon that lesser mortals cannot possiby attain?
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Post by Jonjel on Aug 1, 2014 10:48:41 GMT
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