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Post by ncsonde on Oct 14, 2014 4:38:03 GMT
It doesn't really matter, does it? The Welsh got used to it in the end, just as the English will. Of course the Welsh have taken remedial action to preserve the language they so nearly lost There was never the slightest possibility of the language being "lost". If there had been, it would have died out centuries ago, during which time the English made concerted efforts to get rid of it. Actually, I was being generous - it didn't really have much to do with such absurd attempts to be noble. It was rather a result that with the Troubles blowing up in N.Ireland, and the Scots beginning their long route-march to what you must doubtless feel as their liberation, it was decided to concede to the demands of what was basically a handful of quasi-anarchistic (but more accurately fascistic) nutters (led by a Franco-worshipping Spaniard, if you're really looking for irony) before any more cottages got burned.
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Post by ncsonde on Oct 14, 2014 4:51:09 GMT
And the "remedial action" you apparently admire, as a Statist educationalist doubtless should, has of course rapidly led to the widely and loudly predicted result - a drastic plummetting in educational achievements, a near cessation of what had until then been a healthily growing level of foreign investment, a massive decline in the measurable standard of public servants - teachers, health workers, civil administrators - as the legal demand to be a Welsh speaker has persuaded without a second thought anyone well qualified or ambitious or competent to stay in England, a predicted rise in unemployment, and fall in private employment, and a general degradation of public provision due to the enormous cost of such wasteful indulgence. The cost alone of having to print every document written in the public sector in both English and Welsh was over £100 million as soon as it was introduced - it must have doubled or even tripled by now. This is in a country with little more than three million people - four fifths of whom can't speak Welsh, and have absolutely no desire to do so; and the other fifth of whom are all perfectly able to speak English, as their parents and grandparents and great-great-great grandparents did.
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Post by ncsonde on Oct 14, 2014 5:15:53 GMT
They have not got used to it hence Plaid Cymru. The majority have, marchesa. They don't even burn cottages owned by English incomers any more. "They" didn't then. The Free Welsh Army were an assorted bunch of drug-addled misfits, criminals, horse-theives, cattle-rustlers, and fascists with a inbuilt liking for violence, intimidation and arson. Half a dozen thugs, at most. I know - I met them all, heard all their stories. Most of them are English themselves, so it'd be a bit self-defeating - as if they needed any more. There might be a few straggle-toothed familes left, in the NorthWest, playing their banjoes in the forest. Widely and deeply resented Government dictated damage to their children, is how most Welsh people would label it (speaking as one). Even the putative "real" Welsh you seem to believe exist somewhere, as opposed to the people who live in Wales. Funny how this somewhat indistinguishable people - thoroughly genetically mixed at best, mythical unless you go back before the Romans at worst - are granted such natural rights to impose their supposed cultural identity on everyone else, whether they want it ot nor, without even the excuse it makes sense or does the remotest bit of good, whereas calls for even consideration along similar lines for the English - sorry, the "Little English" - is insouciantly labelled "racist".
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Post by jean on Oct 14, 2014 8:30:52 GMT
You don't seem to have realised, Nick, that the post of mine you are replying to here was addressed to the marchesa - she's the one who thinks that allowing English people into Wales was inevitably going to cause conflict; I on the other hand believe the two groups are capable of living peaceably together, so long as the needs of the indigenous inhabitants are treated sympathetically. The views of mine that you caricature here are very far from the truth: Funny how this somewhat indistinguishable people - thoroughly genetically mixed at best, mythical unless you go back before the Romans at worst - are granted such natural rights to impose their supposed cultural identity on everyone else, whether they want it or not, without even the excuse it makes sense or does the remotest bit of good, whereas calls for even consideration along similar lines for the English - sorry, the "Little English" - is insouciantly labelled "racist". If we ever do find a town or city where ...English is the least heard language... (and I remind you that we haven't found one yet), then I am very much in favour of schools teaching through the medium of English, to ensure that the language is not lost, or replaced by Polish. I believe something of the sort happens in most towns and cities in England already.
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Post by Paulie Dacre on Oct 14, 2014 11:00:26 GMT
People who read the Daily Mail will "know" that hardly anybody speaks English in our towns and cities anymore.
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aqua
WH Member
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Post by aqua on Oct 14, 2014 22:54:14 GMT
The world being what it is, it’ll keep changing. Quite rapidly at times, and more slowly at others. I’m not particularly fussed, even if we’re in the rapid phase (which I think we are) – because I don’t know how much time I have left myself. I happen still to be English as well as British. I learnt the distinction from racists, but didn’t accept it as it’s all bollux. An admirably concise encapsulation of the little egg-nest of liberal-left prejudicial doctrines, short-sighted arrogant self-centredness, and blatant economic exploititativeness, that have - predictably and predicted - produced this mess. But it must be slowly sinking in to even people like you by now - by which I mean the bien-pensant middle-class liberal-left governing elite who "planned" all this - that it's all over? Your happy multicultural dirigiste Utopia didn't arrive, and never will? You presume too much, ncs.
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aqua
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Post by aqua on Oct 14, 2014 22:59:03 GMT
Listened to Vince Cable the other day extolling the benefits of people coming here - and I accept there maybe some benefits but I can't really see them. I'm lucky enough to be able to afford a house, I'm not on some waiting list for social housing, the family health is fairly OK (touch wood) so NHS waiting lists aren't an immediate issue, but we not rich enough to want cheap nannys, cleaners, gardeners etc. Immigration is rather like a surprise Christmas present, no-one asked if you wanted it, OK it maybe nice but do you really need it! Do you know of any countries that have no immigration? Scary, no?
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aqua
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Post by aqua on Oct 14, 2014 23:16:36 GMT
An admirably concise encapsulation of the little egg-nest of liberal-left prejudicial doctrines, short-sighted arrogant self-centredness, and blatant economic exploititativeness, that have - predictably and predicted - produced this mess. But it must be slowly sinking in to even people like you by now - by which I mean the bien-pensant middle-class liberal-left governing elite who "planned" all this - that it's all over? Your happy multicultural dirigiste Utopia didn't arrive, and never will? You presume too much, ncs. Still on the rapid phase .... Haven't you been amazed that in the (very few!) last few years we've seen ... (All in a good way, of course) ...? : Civil partnerships, gay marriages, a dilution of casual sexism and racism in 'everyday commerce'; etc; (still a lot of a way to go, tho, on racism and its proxies in particular). Well, I've been amazed. That it happened in my lifetime. Am glad to have contributed to the tolerance and support, in whatever small way I might've.
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Post by sweetjessicajane on Oct 15, 2014 6:12:47 GMT
Listened to Vince Cable the other day extolling the benefits of people coming here - and I accept there maybe some benefits but I can't really see them. I'm lucky enough to be able to afford a house, I'm not on some waiting list for social housing, the family health is fairly OK (touch wood) so NHS waiting lists aren't an immediate issue, but we not rich enough to want cheap nannys, cleaners, gardeners etc. Immigration is rather like a surprise Christmas present, no-one asked if you wanted it, OK it maybe nice but do you really need it! Do you know of any countries that have no immigration? Scary, no? You have a point, maybe I should refer to "mass immigration". The problem with this debate, is that it hasn't been allowed to happen until recently with the rise of UKip. Previously any negative comments about immigration were meet with accusations of racism, ignorance, bigotry or all of them. There were groups of this society who had real concerns and those concerns were just dismissed. If an answer was given it was given terms of economics and benefit to the UK exchequer, or the intangible of how it adds to the cultural diversity of our cities. When what real people wanted to know whether it would make it harder for them to get a job, because now instead of just 50 people going for each vacancy there were 100. If they were waiting for social housing, would they drop down the waiting list and have to wait another 2 years for a accommodation. Or if they are waiting for a doctor's/hospital appointment they have to wait a few more weeks to get one. Or would they be able to get a place at a local school. I can acknowledge that sometimes there is a need to "import" someone from abroad to fill a vacancy if there is no one with the required expertise to fill it, but it should be seen as a stop gap not a long term solution, the long term solution is to teach/train local people to do jobs. The last Labour government's policy was to get 50% of our youngest into university, if all these people are going to university why don't we have the skilled people we need to fill our vacancies? Because there was no distinction placed on what people should study everything was given equal value. So it was a numerical exercise with no real correlation between who was going to university what they were studying and what the country needed in terms of skilled workers.
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Post by cleefarqhuar on Oct 15, 2014 12:11:17 GMT
Listened to Vince Cable the other day extolling the benefits of people coming here - and I accept there maybe some benefits but I can't really see them. I'm lucky enough to be able to afford a house, I'm not on some waiting list for social housing, the family health is fairly OK (touch wood) so NHS waiting lists aren't an immediate issue, but we not rich enough to want cheap nannys, cleaners, gardeners etc. Immigration is rather like a surprise Christmas present, no-one asked if you wanted it, OK it maybe nice but do you really need it! Do you know of any countries that have no immigration? Scary, no? What a silly question! There are many countries that have next to no immigration What you probably mean 'do you know of any developed countries no mass immigration' (And yes, I do)
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Post by cleefarqhuar on Oct 15, 2014 12:17:51 GMT
Haven't you been amazed that in the (very few!) last few years we've seen ... (All in a good way, of course) ...? : Yes amazing Yes, amazing a dilution of casual sexism Yes all these are amazing But tell me,Aqua, what on earth do they have to do with mass immigration? I suggest they have nothing to do with mass immigration and racism in 'everyday commerce'; At last! Something that is related to mass immigration
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pippop
pc
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Post by pippop on Oct 15, 2014 13:38:31 GMT
Do you know of any countries that have no immigration? Scary, no? What a silly question! There are many countries that have next to no immigration What you probably mean 'do you know of any developed countries no mass immigration' (And yes, I do) We all know that by some quirk he can't think of any of them. Just like he couldn't think of a single one of the "many towns and cities" where English is the least heard language. No doubt handmaiden Nicky will post to tell us that he knows a country where blah blah and he went to see friends there last night who will confirm that blah blah. So. No links. No facts. Just made-up fears and prejudices. Business as usual!
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Post by jean on Oct 15, 2014 15:05:07 GMT
a dilution of casual sexism Yes all these are amazing But tell me,Aqua, what on earth do they have to do with mass immigration? I suggest they have nothing to do with mass immigration and racism in 'everyday commerce'; At last! Something that is related to mass immigration But to give aqua's phrase its proper sense, cleefy, you should note that what aqua had observed was a dilution of racism in 'everyday commerce'. This means that as a result of 'mass immigration' (whatever that is), people have become more accepting of the other in their midst rather than less.That is of course a source of great satisfaction, and I am glad you agree. But is it what you meant?
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Post by Pope Paul II on Oct 15, 2014 15:25:52 GMT
By an amazing coincidence I have friends in Llanybydder who are Polish and they have no problem with the UKIPs Bollux.
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Post by ncsonde on Oct 15, 2014 15:28:29 GMT
You don't seem to have realised, Nick, that the post of mine you are replying to here was addressed to the marchesa If we were sitting around a table or all connected on Skype I would of course let her answer first else I would have been rudely butting in. Fortunately, we're on a messageboard. I suspect your paraphrasal is missing her actual point entirely; maybe - best we let her speak for herself, I'd humbly suggest. I would however make the point, concordant or separate, that human beings being what they are and what they always have been - rather than what we might all prefer them to be or how we might hopefully believe we can mould them if only we can collectivise to exercise enough power - it is very difficult for any easily recognisably distinct groups to peaceably live together; and the smaller the area you're trying to squeeze such distinct communities into, and the fewer the available resources, the more difficult that idealistic prospect becomes. You might object that this is my opinion, based on my anecdotal evidence rather than yours, and of course you'd be right. I would only say in response that my anecdotes amount to what is called "History" - and if you want more of it turn on the news. I see. I admit my respose was made in something of a tongue-in-cheek flippant spirit, true even so that it was. But I'd point out that I did so in similar vein to your deliberate caricature of Nay's origninal point. Or... maybe it wasn't deliberate - maybe you weren't using nitpicking pedantry to mislead or merely irritate but genuinely did believe his point was about the number of people in any one English location speaking English? Sometimes, with you, it's so difficult to know.
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